A Love Letter to the HD800

[solderdude]

I extensively compared my own HD800 (with my own EQ which is not equal to Oratory or others) to the Utopia and they were tonally the same.
The Utopia did have a 'metalic shimmer' that I liked at first but after a while realized it wasn't natural and should not be there.
Without EQ I would go for the Utopia as to me the HD800 (without EQ) is bright (with a sharp edge) and thin.

below HD800 vs Utopia

and below the exact same but using smoothing so one can get a better feel of tonal balance differences.

One can say these are both equally 'rolled off in the bass' but it is the lack of elevated treble that makes the Utopia fuller sounding/less bright.
About 6dB less treble is VERY audible. The peaky behavior is what I think is responsible for the metalic 'shimmer' of certain instruments. Not bothering, it even has 'something' but in the end just a tad unnatural.

Comfort on both is great but quite different. HD800 is a bit more 'spacious' as well. Both are about equal in instrument separation/pinpointing/looseness (if those words make sense to me).
Utopia is 'plush' and feels like any normal over ear headphone but is a bit heavy (almost 500 gram)
HD800(S) is lighter in weight and sits very different on the head. May not be everyone's cup of tea but I like the comfort.
Both have a thick and long cable. The HD800 cable is stiff as well, horrible cable and needs replacement (well I changed it). Both HPs use expensive connectors so replacement cables are not cheap.

Later I compared the Utopia to Clear and think they are too close to warrant the price difference. In fact I slightly preferred the Clear as it lacked the 'metalic shimmer' but isn't as 'ethereal' and 'overly detailed' sounding, more natural treble.

below the Elear vs Clear vs Utopia

As can be seen the Utopia has more 'upper treble' and the 'metalic shimmer' I heard probably is the elevation between 6kHz and 10kHz.
The Clear doesn't have that. If you did not like the stock HD800(S) the Clear would be the best choice.

The reason I haven't bought any Focals (and certainly not second hand, nor Utopia) is the reports of drivers failing and warranty issues. They may just be rumours though.

The Clears, to me, are a clear step-up from the Elear which isn't my thing. There is something quite 'off' with it to me. Not bad sounding, just a bit 'off'

To me the K812 sounded pretty good, as did the DT1990, BUT these need EQ or a passive filter (so can be used without any EQ).
Another excellent one is the HE6 but needs decent amplification.

Filters needed and though all are having good bass extension are not basshead cans!
It is the treble emphasis (curable without sacrificing detail but lowering 'hyper detailing') is by far the biggest reason why folks find these headphones on the lean and bright side.

The HE6 is one headphone I thought sounded 'perfect' to me without any EQ but not all folks agree (as with everything in audio). Heavy in weight though, same as Utopia. Very different pads so feel different.

In the end, I always return to the HD800 (with EQ) because it is relatively light-weight, comfortable to me, is spacious, detailed, not sharp (WITH EQ) and effortless and realistic, relaxing.

 

[gikigill]

HD800 with Sonarworks is my longest lasting setup. Still holds its own among newcomers

 

[Veri]

I extensively compared my own HD800 (with my own EQ which is not equal to Oratory or others) to the Utopia and they were tonally the same.
The Utopia did have a 'metalic shimmer' that I liked at first but after a while realized it wasn't natural and should not be there.
Without EQ I would go for the Utopia as to me the HD800 (without EQ) is bright (with a sharp edge) and thin.

below HD800 vs Utopia

and below the exact same but using smoothing so one can get a better feel of tonal balance differences.

One can say these are both equally 'rolled off in the bass' but it is the lack of elevated treble that makes the Utopia fuller sounding/less bright.
About 6dB less treble is VERY audible. The peaky behavior is what I think is responsible for the metalic 'shimmer' of certain instruments. Not bothering, it even has 'something' but in the end just a tad unnatural.

Comfort on both is great but quite different. HD800 is a bit more 'spacious' as well. Both are about equal in instrument separation/pinpointing/looseness (if those words make sense to me).
Utopia is 'plush' and feels like any normal over ear headphone but is a bit heavy (almost 500 gram)
HD800(S) is lighter in weight and sits very different on the head. May not be everyone's cup of tea but I like the comfort.
Both have a thick and long cable. The HD800 cable is stiff as well, horrible cable and needs replacement (well I changed it). Both HPs use expensive connectors so replacement cables are not cheap.

Later I compared the Utopia to Clear and think they are too close to warrant the price difference. In fact I slightly preferred the Clear as it lacked the 'metalic shimmer' but isn't as 'ethereal' and 'overly detailed' sounding, more natural treble.

below the Elear vs Clear vs Utopia

As can be seen the Utopia has more 'upper treble' and the 'metalic shimmer' I heard probably is the elevation between 6kHz and 10kHz.
The Clear doesn't have that. If you did not like the stock HD800(S) the Clear would be the best choice.

The reason I haven't bought any Focals (and certainly not second hand, nor Utopia) is the reports of drivers failing and warranty issues. They may just be rumours though.

The Clears, to me, are a clear step-up from the Elear which isn't my thing. There is something quite 'off' with it to me. Not bad sounding, just a bit 'off'

To me the K812 sounded pretty good, as did the DT1990, BUT these need EQ or a passive filter (so can be used without any EQ).
Another excellent one is the HE6 but needs decent amplification.

Filters needed and though all are having good bass extension are not basshead cans!
It is the treble emphasis (curable without sacrificing detail but lowering 'hyper detailing') is by far the biggest reason why folks find these headphones on the lean and bright side.

The HE6 is one headphone I thought sounded 'perfect' to me without any EQ but not all folks agree (as with everything in audio). Heavy in weight though, same as Utopia. Very different pads so feel different.

In the end, I always return to the HD800 (with EQ) because it is relatively light-weight, comfortable to me, is spacious, detailed, not sharp (WITH EQ) and effortless and realistic, relaxing.

Interesting thing about the HE6. Makes me curious. I'm not sure the current production HE6-SE is that similar to the HE-6 of old though....

 

[Fluffy]

I extensively compared my own HD800 (with my own EQ which is not equal to Oratory or others)

Can you share your EQ preset for it?

 

[Soniclife]

I extensively compared my own HD800 (with my own EQ which is not equal to Oratory or others) to the Utopia and they were tonally the same.
The Utopia did have a 'metalic shimmer' that I liked at first but after a while realized it wasn't natural and should not be there.
Without EQ I would go for the Utopia as to me the HD800 (without EQ) is bright (with a sharp edge) and thin.

below HD800 vs Utopia

and below the exact same but using smoothing so one can get a better feel of tonal balance differences.

One can say these are both equally 'rolled off in the bass' but it is the lack of elevated treble that makes the Utopia fuller sounding/less bright.
About 6dB less treble is VERY audible. The peaky behavior is what I think is responsible for the metalic 'shimmer' of certain instruments. Not bothering, it even has 'something' but in the end just a tad unnatural.

Comfort on both is great but quite different. HD800 is a bit more 'spacious' as well. Both are about equal in instrument separation/pinpointing/looseness (if those words make sense to me).
Utopia is 'plush' and feels like any normal over ear headphone but is a bit heavy (almost 500 gram)
HD800(S) is lighter in weight and sits very different on the head. May not be everyone's cup of tea but I like the comfort.
Both have a thick and long cable. The HD800 cable is stiff as well, horrible cable and needs replacement (well I changed it). Both HPs use expensive connectors so replacement cables are not cheap.

Later I compared the Utopia to Clear and think they are too close to warrant the price difference. In fact I slightly preferred the Clear as it lacked the 'metalic shimmer' but isn't as 'ethereal' and 'overly detailed' sounding, more natural treble.

below the Elear vs Clear vs Utopia

As can be seen the Utopia has more 'upper treble' and the 'metalic shimmer' I heard probably is the elevation between 6kHz and 10kHz.
The Clear doesn't have that. If you did not like the stock HD800(S) the Clear would be the best choice.

The reason I haven't bought any Focals (and certainly not second hand, nor Utopia) is the reports of drivers failing and warranty issues. They may just be rumours though.

The Clears, to me, are a clear step-up from the Elear which isn't my thing. There is something quite 'off' with it to me. Not bad sounding, just a bit 'off'

To me the K812 sounded pretty good, as did the DT1990, BUT these need EQ or a passive filter (so can be used without any EQ).
Another excellent one is the HE6 but needs decent amplification.

Filters needed and though all are having good bass extension are not basshead cans!
It is the treble emphasis (curable without sacrificing detail but lowering 'hyper detailing') is by far the biggest reason why folks find these headphones on the lean and bright side.

The HE6 is one headphone I thought sounded 'perfect' to me without any EQ but not all folks agree (as with everything in audio). Heavy in weight though, same as Utopia. Very different pads so feel different.

In the end, I always return to the HD800 (with EQ) because it is relatively light-weight, comfortable to me, is spacious, detailed, not sharp (WITH EQ) and effortless and realistic, relaxing.

Excellent info, I'm going to have to try and hear an 800 with EQ.
Do you have a view how the LCD3 compares?

Do you think most headphones benefit from a low end boost?

 

[suttondesign]

The LCD-3 has usually been my personal alternative to the HD-800 because of its extended bass response and general smoothness of response without EQ. But the EQ'd HD-800 for me is like not having headphones on, whereas the LCD-3 still sounds like headphones. Both are excellent choices. The LCD-3 is heavy. And to address whether I am biased as a dealer of Audeze, I picked up the line because I liked it, yet I still reach for the Sennheiser as my cans of choice. Too bad Sennheiser doesn't care enough to let me sell them!

 

[Crazy_Nate]

I tried listening to a pair of HD800S through a D90 and 789. I enjoyed the headphones for jazz / classical / well recorded stuff, but that's not usually what I listen to. I'm trying to convince my friend that owns them that he really needs to set up EQ before I'll listen to them again with rock / metal. I find them too bright, to the point that they're quite fatiguing. No amount of soundstage will convince me to listen to them like that. I don't see how I could like HD800 either, maybe with some mods and EQ they might be tamed enough. My wife equally didn't like the HD800S.

Interestingly, my friend that owns the HD800S cans just set up some new bookshelf speakers with an integrated amp. His first thought was that they were dark...I told him he needs to take a break from listening to the un-EQ'd 800S. Gotta bring his "reference" back into focus.

Headphones in general are just so personal of a decision. I'm going to try to make it to RMAF this year so I can try out a lot of the cans that I might like (Clear, LCD-?, Ananda/Arya).

 

[Fluffy]

@Crazy_Nate
I agree with almost everything you said. For rock and metal I think the Focal Clear/Utopia are the ultimate headphones. So much power and dynamics, and the imaging is so life-like (subjectively). just needs a bit of EQ to give some bass kick and tame a bit of high treble. And also, they are seriously the most comfortable headphones I ever tried. This is a very individual thing, but everyone who tried them said the same.

 

[FrantzM]

I have a stupid urge for a new pair of cans. I thought of the HD800s heard one and...
Let say that the HifiMan HE6 (Old model, haven’t heard the HE6 SE) belongs to the top 5 headphones at any price.

 

[frogmeat69]

Interesting thing about the HE6. Makes me curious. I'm not sure the current production HE6-SE is that similar to the HE-6 of old though....

I was gonna ask if Solderdude tried the HE6se yet, am curious about the same thing as you, never tried the original HE6, but own the SE.
How similar or different are they?

 

[solderdude]

Can you share your EQ preset for it?

There is no preset, my EQ is analog.
You can reverse engineer settings from my with and without EQ measurements

I was gonna ask if Solderdude tried the HE6se yet, am curious about the same thing as you, never tried the original HE6, but own the SE.
How similar or different are they?

No, I haven't but a dealer I sometime visit and lets me listen and measure the headphones he has on display does have them.
Alas the coming months I am too busy to pay him a visit (or 3 because he has loads of new headphones I am dying to measure/audition)

 

[Fluffy]

There is no preset, my EQ is analog.

I understand that, but what are the changes that this EQ is making? I can see roughly that you boosted bass below 200 hz and decreased treble above 4khz. By how many DB? At what frequencies and Q factor?

 

[solderdude]

Changes are deeper bass, more body and no piercing treble.

a shelve below and a -7dB around 10kHz, the Q I do not know, + small top shelve.
I just simulate, build, listen, tweak, measure, listen, tweak, measure and confirm it is what I want.
So a shelve + notch filter and a slight shelve in the upper treble.

 

[suttondesign]

I understand that, but what are the changes that this EQ is making? I can see roughly that you boosted bass below 200 hz and decreased treble above 4khz. By how many DB? At what frequencies and Q factor?

I notch 6db or so at 6khz with a Q of 6. I peak 20hz by 5db and a Q of .7, which causes a gentle rise from about 80hz downward until it's 5db up at 20hz.

 

[whill]

Hi,

Did anyone tried to compare the Beyerdynamic T1 2nd Gen to the HD800/s?

I am just curious how much different is the HD800/s to the Beyers.

Thank you.

Whill

 

[solderdude]

T1 (2nd gen) vs HD800

They both need EQ.
My preference goes to HD800 for comfort and stereo imaging.
After EQ they are not that far apart.
Stock the T1 is slightly 'warmer' in the mids.
Both have a slightly different 'sharp edge' in the upper treble.

 

[whill]

Thank you Solderdude for this Graph.

 

[suttondesign]

Personally, I hear the distortion, like something wrong with cone movement, in the 1k-2k range in the T1, and the imaging is not nearly as profound as in the HD800.
I agree that with EQ, the response can be be made very similar.

 

[Tks]

am unclear as to why the TOTL generally has not obviously surpassed these cans (apart from the tweaks with the HD-800s).

That's actually quite simple.

For one, they're all morons not willing to create bigger cavities and distance from ear to driver. This I feel is the BIGGEST contributory factor to everyone who attests to the "soundstage" capabilities of the HD800. Also another massive benefit is they're(the 800's as opposed to others TOTL headphones) made of plastic (while others are busy slapping on bricks held by a band for you to wear). They think plastic is cheap (so it's simply a vanity issue others simply will not risk as Senn does).

As far as sound, they have been surpassed even by their HD6-- variants. The HD800's are an example of amazingly good ergonomic and aesthetic design, but an complete and inexcusable fumble in terms of audibility. Their bass (specifically sub bass by a massive margin) is garbage that wouldn't pass as excusable ten years ago, let alone in a SKU today, let alone at the price they charge.

Second, the treble rape peak that it's infamous for is a pathetic embarrassment for any company who has any semblance of the idea of what shame means. How they simply refuse to bite the bullet and totally scrap the driver design in place for a fresh new one (and take the high road) is beyond me. But not really inconceivable, seeing as how enough people seemingly are willing to live with headphones that have sub par bass, and grating treble. If it were not for EQ, these would be simply unusable in my opinion (and even with EQ, if you care about bass at all, get ready for distortion if you dare boost any bass region).

In my humble opinion, if you took the HD800 driver, and put it in any other of their headphones, they would be laughed off as nonsense. It's only thanks to the genius design of the earcup shape, size, and space (along with a nice headband, and a lightweight headphone that it is) that these have any credibility in the modern day (and the famous "soundstage" moniker that follows them).

With EQ (since I'm not too big on bass and high-pass anything on headphones lower than 40-30Hz anyway, and the treble is also easy to take care of, so with my preferences, I'm simply lucky) these become some of the best headphones on the market (again also thanks to the great ergonomics and design).

Without EQ, and for anyone that cares about bass on a more than average level, these are headphones I would as a company do a recall of... That is how broken the driver design is in my opinion. Oh and just for those wondering "what about the HD800S", those are virutally the same, but for the slight bandaid on the treble spike they've applied, they've got worse bass as a result... So arguably worse to some people..

 

[suttondesign]

Strong words. I stand by my thoughts. Not sure why the HD800’s brew works so well for me. It just does.