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A good Klipsch The Fives upgrade? (powered, 5k max)

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This is the result (no wall mode, bass extension extra, treble trim +3)View attachment 435140

The sweep was pretty loud and i could definitely hear more low frequencies now, so i truly think i need to do a slight V shape EQ, to maybe get satisfying bass at my listening level and to make it more comparable with the Fives/Duo’s.

The speakers are in a 35m2 rectangle room. Sadly i don’t have much flexibility in terms of
placement because of the layout of the room and the seating area in it.
Do you happen to have a measurement of your Fives using this measuring regime? Do you know what smoothing is applied to this, 1/12, 1/6? How do you have the Kef app tools set for this test? Wall mode? Bass extension?
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Btw I’ve seen similar 0-250Hz peaks/dips out of my room eerily ;)

It’s worth trying the standard and less extension bass options counterintuitively. I mean it’s only natural to want more extension right… without subs I’m not sure I’d use the more extension setting, especially if you like to step on the loud pedal frequently. Using up amp juice trying to get more output below that 30Hz doesn’t appear to be productive based on your fr. You really don’t need more super low response to have the bass you’re accustomed to with your Fives.

When I started playing with the subs in my setup I forgot to turn the greater extension on and couldn’t figure out why nothing changed below 30Hz. Once I did I had good output to 20Hz. Looks like with your layout and room response you aren’t going to get much below 31Hz without heroic effort. You will have more amp/peq headroom to use imo not trying to push lower using the extra extension option.

What’s your listening triangle dimensions? Where is your listening position relative to the room center?

*edit to add I appreciate your sharing your results. I learn more how the LS60’s settings affect things in discussions like this. Thanks
 
Doing EQ by hand sounds pretty complicated but it can be pretty intuitive once you've done a couple measurements and tweaks. Basically you are adding one filter per peak to lower them, so that the green line becomes smoother and closer to the yellow line.

Basically, to handle peaks by hand, here's what you would do:

Find a peak (as @kyuu points out), note the frequency. Look at the difference between the top of the peak and the yellow line. For the lowest peak, this would probably be 33ish Hz and 13dB.

In the EQ software (Peace or EQAPO or WiiM or MiniDSP etc.) make a "peaking" filter (easy to remember) with the same frequency, but -13dB gain instead of +13. You are lowering the peak here.

There is a third setting, "Q". This stands for the width / sharpness of the filter. Usually for correcting bass, Q will be between 1.0 and 2.0. Higher numbers make sharper peaks or cuts. Setting Q is somewhat trial and error, but the goal is to make the filter match the width of the peak in your measured response. It might take a few tries.

If the software shows you the EQ curve, you can use that to adjust Q by eye, otherwise take another measurement and adjust based on the result.

WiiM has the same functionality as this, it's pretty standard in any EQ software.

Basic room correction software (like on WiiM or the REW utility) automates this process, but doesn't do anything you can't theoretically do by hand. It works on exactly the same basis, but tries to solve for the best-fit curve it can using a set number of filters.

You can also sort of try to fill in dips the same way, but it doesn't work as well due to the acoustic nature of dips vs. peaks. Peaks are 1+1=2, so 0.5 + 0.5 = 1. But dips are 1-1=0. If you adjust it, 2-2=0 and 0.5-0.5=0... so adjusting dips doesn't work the same.

IRL dips aren't usually cancelled truly perfectly, so you can fill them in a little, but asking your amp to do +10dB at low frequencies is typically not fun for the amp, so they're hard to deal with using EQ.

More advanced room correction software like Dirac, Audyssey or Trinnov does fancy things with phase and even actively cancelling some reflected sound to further improve sound... but you get pretty far (maybe 80%) by just leveling out peaks.

Anyway, it looks like you have some pretty considerable peaks in your response... it's likely that your Klipsch speakers were exciting the same modes. Once you correct the dips you're probably going to feel even more of a lack of bass. But, once that's done, don't be afraid to add a low shelf to the whole thing and boost the bass back to where you like it. Once you've done that, you'll have smooth bass and the correct quantity, with each bass note coming through at the correct volume, not the semi-random in-and-out sound you get with uncorrected bass.
Thank you so much for all the help.

I think I might return the LS60s as I don’t think the upgrade is massive compared to The Fives (in my room, yeah shoot me lol).

I am interested in adding a sub to fill out the low end nicely, but definitely in room correcting my Klipsch. What would be the most effective yet easy/automatic way to do this? I want it to be decently accurate. Perhaps a WiiM Pro and KEF Kube 10? Does the WiiM Pro connected to the Klipsch automatically correct the sub as well?
 
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Thank you so much for all the help.

I think I might return the LS60s as I don’t think the upgrade is massive compared to The Fives (in my room, yeah shoot me lol).

I am interested in adding a sub to fill out the low end nicely, but definitely in room correcting my Klipsch. What would be the most effective yet easy/automatic way to do this? I want it to be decently accurate. Perhaps a WiiM Pro and KEF Kube 10? Does the WiiM Pro connected to the Klipsch automatically correct the sub as well?
I think you have got to go up to the WiiM Ultra??? to get sub out. The Pro's don't have that capability.
 
The Klipsch have a sub out so I was thinking Subwoofer to Klipsch and then Klipsch to WiiM Pro
Similar to the LS60’s eh? Do the Klipsch take a spdif input? Coax or Optical? As long as you stay in the digital realm (not using analog out) there won’t be a performance difference between the two versions of WiiM Pro I don’t think. Otherwise the Pro Plus does have a better DAC which might provide audible advantages. Maybe. Not sure about the Kef subs. They seem capable but pricier then other options depending on where you’re located.
 
Similar to the LS60’s eh? Do the Klipsch take a spdif input? Coax or Optical? As long as you stay in the digital realm (not using analog out) there won’t be a performance difference between the two versions of WiiM Pro I don’t think. Otherwise the Pro Plus does have a better DAC which might provide audible advantages. Maybe. Not sure about the Kef subs. They seem capable but pricier then other options depending on where you’re located.
Yes so spdif in from TV to WiiM Pro, then spdif out to the Klipsch and subwoofer to the Klipsch.

I feel like this wil give me decent room correction, added AirPlay to the Klipsch and the sub will fill the low end nicely
 
So I just used a WiiM Pro for roomcorrection. They do sound better but as expected it killed the low end a lot more, so i have to use a bass shelf. It has to be around 110Hz (Q 0.6) with +9dB.

Is this okay to do? And can I add even more if i want?
 
So I just used a WiiM Pro for roomcorrection. They do sound better but as expected it killed the low end a lot more, so i have to use a bass shelf. It has to be around 110Hz (Q 0.6) with +9dB.

Is this okay to do? And can I add even more if i want? Also, what frequency are “punchy” kick drums?
Sure, there's no problem boosting the bass as long as your system has the headroom (if you don't hear distortion or clipping, you're probably OK). From what I understand, kick drums range up to about 150Hz.
 
Sure, there's no problem boosting the bass as long as your system has the headroom (if you don't hear distortion or clipping, you're probably OK). From what I understand, kick drums range up to about 150Hz.
Ahh great! And which target curve is the best for the room correction? B&K or Harman?
 
So I just used a WiiM Pro for roomcorrection. They do sound better but as expected it killed the low end a lot more, so i have to use a bass shelf. It has to be around 110Hz (Q 0.6) with +9dB.

Is this okay to do? And can I add even more if i want?

It's okay to do as long as the speakers still sound clean/non-distorted, the LS60s have built-in limiters that will pull output prior to risking possible damage. These speakers will compress at higher volumes across the bass before The Fives do, though. Depending on how they're tuned, kick drum fundamentals are usually between 60Hz - 100Hz. "Chest punch" is normally felt in the 60-80Hz range. If you're attempting to approximate the real thing, you will need much larger speakers or subwoofers.
 
So I just got the KEF LS60. The midbass to upper frequenties i’m very satisfied with. But my god they sound so anemic even with wall mode off and bass extension on extra. I get that they aim for linearity, but even my Klipsch in the most neutral mode have way more sub/bass.
My guess it's neither bass extension nor much of V-shape itself.
I'd rather bet on uneven transient/dynamics according to how you describe that. Maybe also overall "scale" or "size" feel.
Well, keep in mind that you're dealing with an LSX-size 4" coaxial driver integrated into slim but tall subwoofer, consider it as a high-end sub-sat system or maybe a most advanced "lifestyle slim speaker".
Am I doing something wrong!?
As a very conservative person, if I liked how my Klipsch Fives sound and wanted the same but more, bigger and better I'd go for Nines.
Bigger speakers play bigger.
I think I might return the LS60s as I don’t think the upgrade is massive compared to The Fives
If you don't like the sound I see no reason to cope and making yourself love it because some expert said it's fine.
Looking on how LS60 prices dropped (currently you can get a new pair for less than 4k eur, started at 6k), one may think that its not getting as much likes as expected ;)
 
My guess it's neither bass extension nor much of V-shape itself.
I'd rather bet on uneven transient/dynamics according to how you describe that. Maybe also overall "scale" or "size" feel.
Well, keep in mind that you're dealing with an LSX-size 4" coaxial driver integrated into slim but tall subwoofer, consider it as a high-end sub-sat system or maybe a most advanced "lifestyle slim speaker".

As a very conservative person, if I liked how my Klipsch Fives sound and wanted the same but more, bigger and better I'd go for Nines.
Bigger speakers play bigger.

If you don't like the sound I see no reason to cope and making yourself love it because some expert said it's fine.
Looking on how LS60 prices dropped (currently you can get a new pair for less than 4k eur, started at 6k), one may think that its not getting as much likes as expected ;)

That’s a very fair statement tbh, you’re absolutely right. I’ll test them for a few extra days to see if i like them enough. I’ve grown to appreciate the bass now tbh.

The only thing still bothering me is that somehow dialogue/voices sound “doubled” or echoey. I assume that might be because the side firing woofers or the very wide dispersion of the tweeter, but i definitely have to get used to that in contrary to the sound being shot directly to me like the Fives/Duo’s did.

My dreamset would be a B&W Duo 2 with optical in, IR and better directivity, but oh well ;)
 
It has to be around 110Hz (Q 0.6) with +9dB.

Is this okay to do?
Definitely OK to do. Sounds reasonable.
And can I add even more if i want?
At some point the amps or speaker drivers will run out of juice or excursion and (in the case of the LS60) it will start to limit the bass. So, you can add more if you want, but consider that each +3dB requires double the amp power, and you see why you can only boost so much from baseline.

somehow dialogue/voices sound “doubled” or echoey.
Hmm, do you have really high ceilings or something? This is not expected.

which target curve is the best for the room correction? B&K or Harman?
For speakers you don't need to think too hard about target curve... basically anything that is slightly tilted down from flat (i.e. a straight line that goes down from about 100hz to 20khz by a few dB) is considered fine / normal. Below 100hz, as you are doing, people tend to go with their preferences, anywhere from flat straight across to several dB boost.
 
Hmm, do you have really high ceilings or something? This is not expected.
Uhm i think around 3 to 3.5 meters. The only speakers i’ve had the same issue with are the Sonos Arc which upfires the music so that makes sense.

It’s hard to explain the effect. I don’t think “echo” is the accurate term to be fair. It’s more comparable with using the TV built in speakers, so almost like a wall of music instead of the music blasting directly to me (which the fives/duo’s do)
 
Have you experimented with the amount of toe-in on the LS60s? Also, one big difference with coaxials compared to "normal" speakers is the vertical directivity. TV speakers might be similar if they're using "full-range" drivers. Do you have bare floors between the speakers and listening position or a decently thick rug/carpet?
 
It’s more comparable with using the TV built in speakers, so almost like a wall of music instead of the music blasting directly to me (which the fives/duo’s do)
Hmm, that sounds really odd. Not similar to my experience at all, my ceilings are actually a bit higher.

Is it the same no matter which input you use on the LS60? I wonder if there's something funny going on with the source...
 
Have you experimented with the amount of toe-in on the LS60s? Also, one big difference with coaxials compared to "normal" speakers is the vertical directivity. TV speakers might be similar if they're using "full-range" drivers. Do you have bare floors between the speakers and listening position or a decently thick rug/carpet?
Yes i’ve tried toe-in, no toe-in and variations of it.

Definitely bare floors in front of the speakers and a very low media console between the speakers (not directly next to them tho). It’s strange because it sounds ‘spread out’, almost like voices and dialogue are coming out of the wall and are dispersed. It does create a very massive soundstage, but it really bothers me with dialogue compared to the bookshelf’s i’ve tried (where it actually FEELS like someone is talking to me).
Hmm, that sounds really odd. Not similar to my experience at all, my ceilings are actually a bit higher.

Is it the same no matter which input you use on the LS60? I wonder if there's something funny going on with the source..

Yes, also with WiFi streaming. It might be the vertical directivity or the side firing woofers… Or i’m just very used to pinpoint dispersion of the Klipsch


I think the best thing to do for me is to return them. For this price i feel like it should “wow” me anyways. I can hear how technically impressive they are.

Are there any other (preferably powered) speakers recommendations that are great, go down to 30hz or even lower and might suit my personal preference more? Maybe something similar to both the Duo’s/Klipsch?
 
Yes i’ve tried toe-in, no toe-in and variations of it.

Definitely bare floors in front of the speakers and a very low media console between the speakers (not directly next to them tho). It’s strange because it sounds ‘spread out’, almost like voices and dialogue are coming out of the wall and are dispersed. It does create a very massive soundstage, but it really bothers me with dialogue compared to the bookshelf’s i’ve tried (where it actually FEELS like someone is talking to me).


Yes, also with WiFi streaming. It might be the vertical directivity or the side firing woofers… Or i’m just very used to pinpoint dispersion of the Klipsch


I think the best thing to do for me is to return them. For this price i feel like it should “wow” me anyways. I can hear how technically impressive they are.

Are there any other (preferably powered) speakers recommendations that are great, go down to 30hz or even lower and might suit my personal preference more? Maybe something similar to both the Duo’s/Klipsch?
Sorry that these didn't work out, I feel somewhat responsible... if after all this you're not happy with them, I'd tend to agree that swapping them out for something else makes sense.

Not that you should keep taking my advice, but for something powered that is more similar to (but better than) the Klispch you might look at:

KH310 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...neumann-kh-310a-review-powered-monitor.17723/
 
Sorry that these didn't work out, I feel somewhat responsible... if after all this you're not happy with them, I'd tend to agree that swapping them out for something else makes sense.

Not that you should keep taking my advice, but for something powered that is more similar to (but better than) the Klispch you might look at:

KH310 https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...neumann-kh-310a-review-powered-monitor.17723/
Ohh please don’t feel responsible. You have taken so much time to advise me and help me and I appreciate it greatly! :)

I’ll look into the KH310. I will also do my own research and see if I can find something fun. But I might just add a subwoofer to my Fives and use the WiiM to improve them a bit and call it a day tbh.
 
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