A good advice about changing audio system

[rmcc]

Hi, i need some help for something i wanna do about my audio system.

Right now, i got an PC with s/pdif output connected to my JUSON JTA50 (it was recommended by a friend), streaming my music from a NAS. The PC has installed LibreElec and TuneIn for radio streamings with everything working fine, and i think i have a very good sound on my speakers (Magnat Monitor Supreme 802)...i think.
The motherboard on my PC is an ASUS TUF Gaming B760M-Plus, with s/pdif output. It supports:
- 7.1 Surround Sound High Definition Audio
- Supports up to 24-Bit/192 kHz playback
- Audio Shielding
- Rear optical S/PDIF out port
- Premium audio capacitors
- Dedicated audio PCB layers
- 98 dB signal-to-noise ratio

So, at this point, i wan't buy a Wiim Streamer, or maybe the Wiim Amp Ultra...i'm not a guy with pockets full of money, so it's a no go for eversolo or other expensive brands.

So, my question is, should i keep my system (PC + Juson) or i'll be better served with an Wiim Streamer attached to my Juson or by an Wiim Amp Ultra and sell my Juson if audio quality is better with the Wiim Amp Ultra?
I've read here a review about JUSON JTA35 and it was rated as "NOT TERRIBLE"...so a poor classification...

Another question is...why so many people buying the Wiim Streamer, ended up buying a DAC (like SMSL PO100 Pro) and connect it to USB port? It has some real gain about it?
So, please, let me know your thoughts.

 

[nerdstrike]

The PC as music player part is fine. The S/PDIF output means the audio chipset is doing almost nothing. The only advantage to you for a Wiim (pro?
) streamer is to be able to play music with your PC off, plus the removal of any PC silliness like notification sounds.

We can speculate that the DAC in your JTA50 is acceptable (at best!), but given the valves prominently displayed on its top, the easiest/cheapest sound improvements would be found in the amplifier. Replacing the JTA50 with a Wiim Amp or the Wiim Amp Ultra would change your sound (having removed lots of distortion).

I think you are in the rare position of actually hearing the difference from a better amp. Leave the digital parts alone until you have really good reason to replace them.

 

[rmcc]

The PC as music player part is fine. The S/PDIF output means the audio chipset is doing almost nothing. The only advantage to you for a Wiim (pro?
) streamer is to be able to play music with your PC off, plus the removal of any PC silliness like notification sounds.

We can speculate that the DAC in your JTA50 is acceptable (at best!), but given the valves prominently displayed on its top, the easiest/cheapest sound improvements would be found in the amplifier. Replacing the JTA50 with a Wiim Amp or the Wiim Amp Ultra would change your sound (having removed lots of distortion).

I think you are in the rare position of actually hearing the difference from a better amp. Leave the digital parts alone until you have really good reason to replace them.

Thanks for you input, much appreciated.

I just attached 2 pics from my music system, it's on SilverStone case.

It seems that you're suggesting to change the amp part...that's why i'm trying to decide.
My struggle here, is to decide to go with Wiim Ultra (Streamer) or Wiim Amp Ultra. At this point i'm inclined to buy the Wiim Amp Ultra, discard the Juson amp and use the PC as a regular Linux PC.
I was checking the Juson specs, feel disappointed with the digital input be 16-bit/48 Khz. Also, the bluetooth codecs are only SBC and AAC.

 

[nerdstrike]

I believe the WiiM ultra streamer has no amp, so you're still limiting on the Juson amp. I suspect it would sound identical if you objectively compared with and without.

The rules of thumb are:
1. Upgrade speakers first - your floorstanders would cost a lot to replace with something better, skip!
2. Treat the room to mitigate bad acoustics - difficult to do right! See DSP below.
3. Improve the amp - judging by the measured JTA35 you can easily gain 30dB in SINAD against a "classic sound" valved amp, have equal or more power and better efficiency and all for relatively cheap with WiiM/SMSL/Topping amplifiers.
4. Then and only then is it worth considering the digital signal side. Higher bit/sample rates are not likely to give an audible benefit. SNR above 96dB is really hard to distinguish. The DAC needs to be really bad to justify spending 200+ $€£ to improve it, UNLESS there is a connectivity or usability issue.

DSP is another angle, but it can be expensive to execute. A good microphone is the minimum there. Since you're controlling stuff on a PC, you can do some DSP quite easily, but you will need to measure what's happening in your room. You can improve the frequency response of your speaker a bit, or go all in on "room correction", but that's normally through expensive software.

The final option is to add subwoofer(s) to cover the bottom end and let the speakers take it easy. Very good when done well, but probably out of your budget to do so. Also can make you a menace to your neighbours and cohabitants.

A nice DAC is the cherry on the cake, but you'd still enjoy the cake without it. 24 bit 192 kHz audio is the colouring in the frosting.. Looks nice, but tastes just the same. The cake analogy breaks down if I continue it...

 

[rmcc]

I believe the WiiM ultra streamer has no amp, so you're still limiting on the Juson amp. I suspect it would sound identical if you objectively compared with and without.

The rules of thumb are:
1. Upgrade speakers first - your floorstanders would cost a lot to replace with something better, skip!
2. Treat the room to mitigate bad acoustics - difficult to do right! See DSP below.
3. Improve the amp - judging by the measured JTA35 you can easily gain 30dB in SINAD against a "classic sound" valved amp, have equal or more power and better efficiency and all for relatively cheap with WiiM/SMSL/Topping amplifiers.
4. Then and only then is it worth considering the digital signal side. Higher bit/sample rates are not likely to give an audible benefit. SNR above 96dB is really hard to distinguish. The DAC needs to be really bad to justify spending 200+ $€£ to improve it, UNLESS there is a connectivity or usability issue.

DSP is another angle, but it can be expensive to execute. A good microphone is the minimum there. Since you're controlling stuff on a PC, you can do some DSP quite easily, but you will need to measure what's happening in your room. You can improve the frequency response of your speaker a bit, or go all in on "room correction", but that's normally through expensive software.

The final option is to add subwoofer(s) to cover the bottom end and let the speakers take it easy. Very good when done well, but probably out of your budget to do so. Also can make you a menace to your neighbours and cohabitants.

A nice DAC is the cherry on the cake, but you'd still enjoy the cake without it. 24 bit 192 kHz audio is the colouring in the frosting.. Looks nice, but tastes just the same. The cake analogy breaks down if I continue it...

Yeah, Wiim Ultra is only a streamer, while the Wiim Amp Ultra is a streamer + amp.

I took a closer look at specs of Juson, and i saw 1% of THD...compared with THD of Wiim Ultra Amp (< 0,005%), so...

I made a decision, i 'm selling my Juson, it was indeed a bad choice of mine, so i'm selling it. It's in pristine condition, the future owner will be proud.

You're right, having my room measured, i't will be something very hard to do. About subwoofer i have a Mivoc Hype 10 G2, which is a monster,
always near to minimum...i can't even think what can happen if i put all power on it.
About your point nº 3 and 4, that's what i trying to do, but now i think that i'm free to choose between a Wiim Ultra + SMSL/Topping amplifiers or Wiim Amp Ultra only.
Yesterday i was seeing some amps, and i found out SMSL RAW-HA1.
Is this a good amplifier? I need an 2.1 amp (with subwoofer output), i can't see much amplifiers with it. Is there more 2.1 SMSL amplifiers?
Will take a look at Topping amplifiers too.

But at this point, i'm a little confused ...having a all-in-one device or having a streamer and amp separate.
Many thaks for your help, it's always welcome

 

[DVDdoug]

I took a closer look at specs of Juson, and i saw 1% of THD...compared with THD of Wiim Ultra Amp (< 0,005%), so...

You probably aren't going to hear 1% distortion. If you can't hear it, going lower doesn't change the sound. I've never heard distortion from ANYTHIG unless it was broken, or unless an amplifier (or something) was over-driven into Clipping. And viny records can sometimes get tracking distortion.

But tubes are "dumb". This is 2025, not 1955.

And tube amps often have higher output impedance than solid state amps (a lower damping factor). Speaker impedance isn't "flat" across the frequency range and the output impedance and speaker impedance "interact" to create frequency response variations that don't happen when using an amplifier with low output impedance. (Not all tube amps have this characteristic.)

Tubes tend to "soft clip" when overdriven with the peaks rounded when overdriven whereas solid state tends to "hard-clip" with squared-off peaks. Guitar players often like the sound of overdriven tubes but with hi-fi we try to avoid distortion and even if the guitar sounds good distorted we don't want the whole band to sound that way.

Speakers tend to be worse than 1% but the distortion isn't normally audible unless they overdriven. Distortion in speakers tends to worse in the bass range when the speaker is over-driven and/or when the bass is turned-up.

Is this a good amplifier? I need an 2.1 amp (with subwoofer output),

Or stick with your 7.1 channel soundcard/soundchip...

Other than changing speakers, EQ will probably make the biggest difference, whether you are using EQ for adjusting to taste or as "room correction". And with a PC source, EQ is usually free!

Or... you might want to go with surround sound. That will also make a HUGE difference! I have a 5.1 channel AVR and with regular stereo recordings I like to use a "hall" or "theater" effect for some delayed reverb in the rear for the "feel" of a bigger space. Your soundchip might have a utility for similar up-mixing. Of course, that is "hi-fi heresy" because I'm not listening accurately as intended and many "audiophiles" would never up-mix to surround but I like it. Plus I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-rays) with TRUE surround, and another shelf-full of movie DVDs.

 

[Good Vibes]

I own and can highly recommend the WiiM Ultra and have it paired to a 3E Audio A7.

3E Audio currently have a sale on aliexpress, depending on your power needs either the A5 or A7 paired with a WiiM Ultra is a fantastic combination.

Black Friday sale will no doubt reduce the cost of the Ultra.

A good time to buy.

 

[rmcc]

I own and can highly recommend the WiiM Ultra and have it paired to a 3E Audio A7.

3E Audio currently have a sale on aliexpress, depending on your power needs either the A5 or A7 paired with a WiiM Ultra is a fantastic combination.

Black Friday sale will no doubt reduce the cost of the Ultra.

A good time to buy.

Many thanks for your reply.

That 3E Audio A5 or A7 could be a good solution with the Wiim Ultra (not the Wiim Amp Ultra). But they don't have a subwoofer intput, that's why i was looking for an amp with it, like the SMSL RAW-HA1, or Aiyima A80.

 

[rmcc]

You probably aren't going to hear 1% distortion. If you can't hear it, going lower doesn't change the sound. I've never heard distortion from ANYTHIG unless it was broken, or unless an amplifier (or something) was over-driven into Clipping. And viny records can sometimes get tracking distortion.

But tubes are "dumb". This is 2025, not 1955.

And tube amps often have higher output impedance than solid state amps (a lower damping factor). Speaker impedance isn't "flat" across the frequency range and the output impedance and speaker impedance "interact" to create frequency response variations that don't happen when using an amplifier with low output impedance. (Not all tube amps have this characteristic.)

Tubes tend to "soft clip" when overdriven with the peaks rounded when overdriven whereas solid state tends to "hard-clip" with squared-off peaks. Guitar players often like the sound of overdriven tubes but with hi-fi we try to avoid distortion and even if the guitar sounds good distorted we don't want the whole band to sound that way.

Speakers tend to be worse than 1% but the distortion isn't normally audible unless they overdriven. Distortion in speakers tends to worse in the bass range when the speaker is over-driven and/or when the bass is turned-up.


Or stick with your 7.1 channel soundcard/soundchip...

Other than changing speakers, EQ will probably make the biggest difference, whether you are using EQ for adjusting to taste or as "room correction". And with a PC source, EQ is usually free!

Or... you might want to go with surround sound. That will also make a HUGE difference! I have a 5.1 channel AVR and with regular stereo recordings I like to use a "hall" or "theater" effect for some delayed reverb in the rear for the "feel" of a bigger space. Your soundchip might have a utility for similar up-mixing. Of course, that is "hi-fi heresy" because I'm not listening accurately as intended and many "audiophiles" would never up-mix to surround but I like it. Plus I have a shelf-full of concert DVDs (and a couple of Blu-rays) with TRUE surround, and another shelf-full of movie DVDs.

Thanks for your input.

I agree with what you wrote, but you agree with me that a SINAD of 56 dB is bad. This for for JTA 35. For JTA50 i bet it's almost the same.
The problem to me, it was, maybe, i mixed digital input with analogue amplification...never gonna buy tub amplifiers again.

Like i said on my first post, i'm using LibreElec as my software. I will try find an EQ software from addons and play with it, i don't know
if there's some room correction in Libreelec addons. Fisrt i was using Volumio, but gave me many headaches, so i give up.
In my case, i don't have an AVR, so no joy for surround sound.

PS. You can rip your DVD's to an HDD, connect it to an box android or Media Player like Nvidia Shield and use Kodi to see it.

 

[Good Vibes]

Many thanks for your reply.

That 3E Audio A5 or A7 could be a good solution with the Wiim Ultra (not the Wiim Amp Ultra). But they don't have a subwoofer intput, that's why i was looking for an amp with it, like the SMSL RAW-HA1, or Aiyima A80.

The WiiM Ultra has a sub out and has great bass management functionality.

 

[rmcc]

The WiiM Ultra has a sub out and has great bass management functionality.

I see...so, i can connect the subwoofer on the WiiM Ultra, and use only the 3e Audio A7 for amplification?

 

[Good Vibes]

I see...so, i can connect the subwoofer on the WiiM Ultra, and use only the 3e Audio A7 for amplification?

Yes, the 3E Audio would be connected via RCA to the WiiM Ultra and sub is connected to the Ultra.

 

[rmcc]

Yes, the 3E Audio would be connected via RCA to the WiiM Ultra and sub is connected to the Ultra.

Last advice, please, it's better connect with spdif or using RCA or XLR/TRS connections?

 

[CptKaos]

I see...so, i can connect the subwoofer on the WiiM Ultra, and use only the 3e Audio A7 for amplification?

I have a WiiM Pro / Aiyima A80 DAC/AMP in my office system with RSL CG3M speakers and a Speedwoofer 10sMKII, great little system

 

[Good Vibes]

Last advice, please, it's better connect with spdif or using RCA or XLR/TRS connections?

The Ultra can only be connected to the amp via RCA.

 

[rmcc]

I have a WiiM Pro / Aiyima A80 DAC/AMP in my office system with RSL CG3M speakers and a Speedwoofer 10sMKII, great little system

I saw a review about Aiyima A80, and it seems to be a great device.
I also saw here on ASR, the Aiyima A70 review and it's very well rated too (95 dB -SINAD)
SINAD on A80 is 117 dB...

 

[rmcc]

The Ultra can only be connected to the amp via RCA.

But Ultra has an spdif output...wouldn't be better use that?

 

[CptKaos]

But Ultra has an spdif output...wouldn't be better use that?

I also have an Ultra + Vibelink system in the livingroom, the Ultra has Toslink, Digital Co-Ax digital outs and RCA analog outs.
there is a significant output power reduction when using the analog RCA out on the Ultra

 

[rmcc]

I also have an Ultra + Vibelink system in the livingroom, the Ultra has Toslink, Digital Co-Ax digital outs and RCA analog outs.
there is a significant output power reduction when using the analog RCA out on the Ultra

So, you have connect them by spdif? i missed vibelink as an option, but i think it has everything i need...and as Good Vibes said, i can connect my sub to the WiiM Ultra.


P.S. It seems the vibelink don't have a remote, how strange. So, we need to put the vibelink volume ate certain point and use the WiiM Ultra remote to change the volume...don't know if this make sense.

 

[CptKaos]

So, you have connect them by spdif? i missed vibelink as an option, but i think it has everything i need...and as Good Vibes said, i can connect my sub to the WiiM Ultra

my WiiM Pro / Aiyima A80 is connected PC>>Toslink>>WiiM Pro>>Toslink>>Aiyima A80 (also have the A80 connected to PC with USB but I am using the optical SPDIF)
my Ultra + Vibelink is connected WiFi>>Ultra>>Toslink>>Vibelink (also have HDMI input from TV connected to the Ultra)