A funny thing about “Loudness” compensation

[SHB]

My first audio system a million years ago was a Marantz 2230 receiver, Marantz 6 speakers and a Garard turntable.

The Marantz 6s had a 10” ported woofer and a 2” tweeter. Frequency response was generously rated at 35 Hz to 20 kHz. I seriously doubt that would hold up today.

Regardless, in the moment, it was a good system (cost me $600 in 1976).

One of the features of the Marantz receiver was a Loudness control button which was for boosting the bass and treble when you listened at low volume. Basically, a bit of ear candy to overcome our hearing being less sensitive to bass and treble frequencies at reduced levels. It was great.

In that system, it seemed necessary.

Eventually, I wound up owning a Marantz 3600B preamp and it it also had a Loudness control, but, funny thing, as I got better speakers and amps over the years my use of that compensation eventually stopped.

In fact, when I’d finally upgraded to a fully active, 20-20kHz, Paradigm system (a pair each of LCR-450s & Servo 15 subs) in the late ‘90s, that same Loudness compensated sound seemed bloated and bright.

Over 20+ years, the speakers changed, but the preamp hadn’t (at least, not in any obvious way - retired it in 2016).

Having thought about this over the years, it’s occurred to me that with a system that has no restrictions of dynamics across the entire audible frequency range, loudness compensation isn’t necessary.

Mind you, this is contingent upon the recording offering equally perceptible volume levels across all 10 octaves.

Has anyone else noticed this?

 

[DVDdoug]

Having thought about this over the years, it’s occurred to me that with a system that has no restrictions of dynamics across the entire audible frequency range, loudness compensation isn’t necessary.

Human hearing hasn't changed and when we listen at lower volumes it still sounds like the bass was turned-down. And, since some details "drop out" of audibility at lower volumes, I feel like boosting the highs can help with that.

Loudness compensation isn't "perfect" but it's a feature that I miss.

 

[JStewart]

Quite the opposite. Use it all the time. Equal loudness contours are real. Perhaps it was the implementation of the loudness button that caused your observation. My current processor uses variable loudness and the user can select the max strength. As the volume increases the bass and treble boost decreases.

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

For all these examples, you are speaking of low volume listening, correct?

I never listen at low volume, so I hadn’t really noticed that loudness control had gone the way of the tape monitor loop. I had a Pioneer stereo integrated amp in the mid-80s that had it, but the one I moved to in the early 1990s (a multi-channel Dolby Pro Logic unit) didn’t.

In any event good question as to why loudness features disappeared. Maybe someone here has an answer.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[DWPress]

For the same reason tone controls remain absent. We were trained to want only that "straight wire" uncolored sound by most of the industry and as a bonus they saved a lot of money not adding those circuits to the amps and integrated boxes.

Now DSP is everywhere, go figure....

 

[Chrispy]

I had a Marantz 2270 back in the day with that limited loudness contour button. I had a pre amp with something similar after that but somewhat adjustable, and these days units with Audyssey DynamicEQ which is even better. Still use such at lower volumes.

 

[SHB]

I realize that my taste will slowly change over the years as will my hearing and listening habits. Also, the days of me having to keep the stereo really low at night so that I don’t disturb my mom has been over for 50 years.

There’s tons of variables at play here that I have no interest in unpacking.

This is just what I’ve noticed. Hey, perhaps at 50dB or less, loudness compensation makes a big difference. I don’t play music at that level anymore.

Let’s put it this way: at a volume that’s comparable in level to a normal speaking voice, I haven’t found it necessary.

Also, my pre/pro has loudness compensation, but, unlike my old Marantz, the control for it is buried deep in a setup menu (pain in the ass). Might as well not exist.

Tried it once and have bagged on it ever since.

 

[Joe Smith]

Since I listen at low levels a good deal of the time, I still use loudness compensation when it's available on whatever amp I am using. Sometimes the built in contour strikes me as more bass-heavy than necessary, so I often just slightly adjust bass and treble analog pots.

 

[DWPress]

I have a DSP plugin that does loudness compensation pretty well though I usually listen at 80+ SPL - it's easy enough to disable but it also has programable thresholds so I tend to leave it on. No measurable difference on/off when I run speaker sweeps at higher volume for instance. I also have a simple W/M/T tone control plugin I use on occasion.

There are new ways to do what we used to take for granted but I will always prefer the simplicity of a knob and a well designed circuit. Just a simple way to fix a flawed recording that's within easy reach and easily defeated.

 

[Chrispy]

I realize that my taste will slowly change over the years as will my hearing and listening habits. Also, the days of me having to keep the stereo really low at night so that I don’t disturb my mom has been over for 50 years.

There’s tons of variables at play here that I have no interest in unpacking.

This is just what I’ve noticed. Hey, perhaps at 50dB or less, loudness compensation makes a big difference. I don’t play music at that level anymore.

Let’s put it this way: at a volume that’s comparable in level to a normal speaking voice, I haven’t found it necessary.

Also, my pre/pro has loudness compensation, but, unlike my old Marantz, the control for it is buried deep in a setup menu (pain in the ass). Might as well not exist.

Tried it once and have bagged on it ever since.

When I used the Marantz setting it was usually at fairly low levels due others in the house, and just added a nice touch. I really like the automatically adjusted DynEQ (and some adjustability depending on content), tho....it quits at reference level which is rare for me to listen at these days in any case, nice not to have to fuss with it much. YMMV

 

[amper42]

There are many variations of "Loudness" function implementations. Some good, some terrible and a few outstanding.

1. The old button on your preamp labeled "Loudness" was usually limited and fairly useless. It would add a slight bump to low and highs but nothing customizable. I usually turned it off after a few minutes as it wasn't that good to be honest.

2. A few DACs offer loudness but again its function is usually limited and rarely customizable.

3. Some receivers also have a similar Function like Denon with four settings to choose from. You are required to pick the one closest to your need but can't dial it in exactly to taste or set exactly when you want it to disappear. It's OK but limited.

4. Then along comes RME and they add a "Loudness" button to the remote and the capability to tweak exactly which frequency it impacts and by how much and at what point it automatically reverses the effect as loudness increases. That feature is totally awesome and can make a system sing.

Based on how varied the "Loudness" implementations are, I can easily see why there may be mixed reviews as to their usefulness. Once you get your hands on a great one - you never let go.

 

[Chrispy]

There are many variations of "Loudness" function implementations. Some good, some terrible and a few outstanding.

1. The old button on your preamp labeled "Loudness" was usually limited and fairly useless. It would add a slight bump to low and highs but nothing customizable. I usually turned it off after a few minutes as it wasn't that good to be honest.

2. A few DACs offer loudness but again its function is usually limited and rarely customizable.

3. Some receivers also have a similar Function like Denon with four settings to choose from. You are required to pick the one closest to your need but can't dial it in exactly to taste or set exactly when you want it to disappear. It's OK but limited.

4. Then along comes RME and they add a "Loudness" button to the remote and the capability to tweak exactly which frequency it impacts and by how much and at what point it automatically reverses the effect as loudness increases. That feature is totally awesome and can make a system sing.

Based on how varied the "Loudness" implementations are, I can easily see why there may be mixed reviews as to their usefulness. Once you get your hands on a great one - you never let go.

Just a note on number 3....it's not just Denon but also Marantz that shares same setup via Audyssey (and some others, but those are the primary brands carrying forward with such now).

 

[jhaider]

Having thought about this over the years, it’s occurred to me that with a system that has no restrictions of dynamics across the entire audible frequency range, loudness compensation isn’t necessary.

Mind you, this is contingent upon the recording offering equally perceptible volume levels across all 10 octaves.

Has anyone else noticed this?

Nope. The only thing that changes, IME, is the offset, depending on the structure of your system.

That does presume an RME or HTP-1 grade loudness program, admittedly.

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

The used Fisher tuner/preamp I bought in 1965 had a variable loudness control knob. A lot of Yamaha gear had variable loudness control until fairly recently. The right amount of compensation for the way our ears work at low volumes is a nice thing to have. I listen at low volume a lot. CamillaDSP has a loudness filter. I've played with it in Moode Audio and PiCoreplayer. I'm not totally satisfied with it but it's fun to tweak.

 

[kemmler3D]

with a system that has no restrictions of dynamics across the entire audible frequency range, loudness compensation isn’t necessary.

I tend to disagree, in that it's useful when you're deliberately listening lower than reference levels, and I think this applies regardless of the system's usable dynamic range.

Let’s put it this way: at a volume that’s comparable in level to a normal speaking voice, I haven’t found it necessary.

Makes sense. I think if we're trying to listen to something at night in our rooms without bothering anyone else, loudness compensation is useful. Over time, that arrangement is no longer in play... it just so happens we upgrade our systems a few times in the process.

 

[AJM1981]

The only thing I have discovered is that this hobby is a synergy quest and and a mess with treats at the same time. No room and its treatment is the same, no loudspeaker is the same, no amp is the same, no individual loudness button has exactly "the same" result either as some apply subtle and some bolder curves. Not per definition telling anything about anything.

Maybe a little attempt. My modern 3-way loudspeaker does sound a bit to really bloated in degrees when turning on loudness on most amps, the modern two-way loudspeaker with one classic amp sounds what they call v-shaped with most amps' loudness button, but gets a nice natural sounding glow / roundness to it with the Sansui au101s loudness switch, which seems to have it just to a more subtle degree. I know it is not meant for any application like this (usually just flip it when one can barely hear dialogue at the lowest of volumes e.g.), but it is just a nice extra. I cannot state that one kind of loudspeaker is better than the other, just because of a switch of similarity.

sorry.. for this not so useful reply

There are many variations of "Loudness" function implementations. Some good, some terrible and a few outstanding

Have to agree on that. Would like to add that even some 'terrible' executions might form a good result with some loudspeakers around the ages these amps were released, which were sometimes the poster-fitters for certain models.

 

[SSS]

If music is heard at loud levels then correction is not necessary when the amplifier, the music source and the loudspeakers are linear about frequencies. But listening at low level bass and upper highs go down in the perception, that is biology. There loudness correction is fine but not perfect. Therefore I use the bass and treble control of my preamplifier instead of the loudness correction. By the way, many loudspeakers are not able to deliver 30 and 40 Hz tones with same level as at 1 kHz. Many reviews showed this. So a bass enhancement in the preamp is probably welcome.

 

[popej]

I started appreciate the proper loudness correction, when I got Yamaha AVR with their digital loudness called YPAO Volume. It was a mind blowing experience to slowly turn volume knob to very low level without any change in tonal balance and clear perception of bass melody line.
I usually listen at low sound levels. I can't imagine doing it without correction.

 

[Vincent Kars]

In the 30's Fletcher and Munson discovered that our hearing is not linear. To make matters worse, the dis-linearity increases the lower the SPL. Basically our ears are the worst microfoon ever.
Loudness as implemented in amps compensate for it. Unfortunately the amp doesn't know the sensitivity of the speakers hence doesn't know the SPL generated. Therefore the loudness compensation is wrong most of the time.

I started appreciate the proper loudness correction, when I got Yamaha AVR with their digital loudness called YPAO

I assume modern amps measure the response so they do know the SPL generated.

 

[Hear Here]

Having thought about this over the years, it’s occurred to me that with a system that has no restrictions of dynamics across the entire audible frequency range, loudness compensation isn’t necessary.

Loudness filters were often included in mid-fi electronics (often the cheap "stack" systems once so popular) to cope better with mid-fi speakers at low listening volumes. Over the decades since these filters were popular, both electronics and more importantly speakers have improved such that listening at low volumes often needs no bass / treble boost. The better the speakers, the less need there is to artificially boost low and high frequencies.