A few measurements of the Marantz NR1710 slim line AV amp (update jan 2024, power amp section)

[Thomas_A]

An update of measurements in post 16.

I just made some simple measurements via pre out of my slim line Marantz NR1710. Not having much advanced equipment but my 18 year old M-Audio Transit DAC and ADC was used to test it in various ways. It only supports 44,1/16 bit when used both ways. Basically it confirms Amirs data that the Marantz AV amps are generally more noisy than they should or need to be.

The loopback of the Transit:

HDMI -> pre out -> Transit ADC.

Transit DAC-> Analogue in->Pre out-> Transit ADC

Same as above but using "direct" mode:

 

[Thomas_A]

Update: Found a problem with the usual USB 1 kHz noise. The overtones disappeared when using a separate laptop connection. Mistake by me - I knew this could be problem long time ago but had forgotten it.

HDMI input - pre out:

Transit DAC -> analouge input ->pre out (pure direct):

This looks much cleaner although the HDMI input does not "clean up" using direct/pure direct. Only using the analogue input via my Transit DAC.

 

[Matias]

Not only harmonics but some large jitter skirts around the main tone...

 

[Thomas_A]

Not only harmonics but some large jitter skirts around the main tone...

Yes, cannot get rid of these using HDMI. Using analogue input they disappear in direct and pure direct mode.

 

[dougi]

Interesting. I was tossing up this or the Yamaha RX-V6A to add a centre channel to a 2.1 setup cheaply. Decided the power of the Marantz was too low. The NR-1710has better DAC pre-out performance for sure though. I measured mine and distortion is 10dB worse than Amir's measurements! (see the V6A review thread). Jitter better though as a small consolation. Is that the latest REW build in the plots? I haven't seen the DR (Dynamic range?) measurement before.

 

[Thomas_A]

Interesting. I was tossing up this or the Yamaha RX-V6A to add a centre channel to a 2.1 setup cheaply. Decided the power of the Marantz was too low. The NR-1710has better DAC pre-out performance for sure though. I measured mine and distortion is 10dB worse than Amir's measurements! (see the V6A review thread). Jitter better though as a small consolation. Is that the latest REW build in the plots? I haven't seen the DR (Dynamic range?) measurement before.

The later ones were measured on my portable mac, version of REW was 5.20 beta 9.

Since I have no high-resolution equipment to measure with my results should be treated with some caution. Indication is however that analogue in with direct/pure direct appears rather clean. Some problem with the HDMI though. If I find my TOSLINK cables in the basement I will try also that connection.

 

[Thomas_A]

Final analysis.

Can't get rid of the 100 Hz sidebands, appears to be PSU-induced in the digital parts of the amp.

Optical in -> pre out "auto mode":

As above but "pure direct" mode:

Mac mini -> analogue in - > pre out "auto mode":

Same as above but "pure direct:

So a "purist" use of the NR1710 for 2-channel would be a good DAC to analogue and use the "direct" or "pure direct" modes. Then you loose many things such as Audyssey.

If anyone have an idea about the origin of the "PSU jitter", I am all ears. This AV amp is one of the few out there that has the size and functions that I wish for.

 

[dougi]

I'm no expert but there does seem to be a body of knowledge around measuring and reducing power supply induced clock jitter. So it must be "a thing". That is disappointing as otherwise, for an AVR, is pretty clean. Also, at normal listening levels the THD spikes may reduce relatively, but those jitter ones won't. Still, it's not that bad. 85dBc products is not awful and they are non harmonically related so an amp is not going to make those worse.

 

[Thomas_A]

Since I have some 50 Hz and 150 Hz pollution I wonder if this could be caused by a ground loop.

 

[Thomas_A]

I tried to search for ground loops with no luck. Below graphs using 16 averages.

All analog/HDMI cables discontented from the AV amp except for optical and pre out, using my mac mini as source using optical cable, and direct mode:

Analog from mac mini and direct mode:

Analog from Transit dac, direct mode (som more spurious noise but lower harmonic distortion):

 

[Blew]

Are there any measurements anywhere of the speaker output levels at 8 and 4 ohms?

 

[Thomas_A]

Are there any measurements anywhere of the speaker output levels at 8 and 4 ohms?

No, I have no equipment for that. Sorry for the very late reply.

 

[tc2007]

Does the NR1711 make a good option for using as an Analogue only integrated amp? I do like the fact that it has subwoofer management, crossover, nice remote, pure mode and DSP when needed. I will be using a nicer DAC from outside.

 

[Thomas_A]

Does the NR1711 make a good option for using as an Analogue only integrated amp? I do like the fact that it has subwoofer management, crossover, nice remote, pure mode and DSP when needed. I will be using a nicer DAC from outside.

I think the NR1711 comes in two versions with different DACs. One would be similar to 1710, the other one is measured here:

Quick & Dirty Measurements of Marantz NR1711 PCM5102A Version (05/2021+)

I am not aware of anybody measuring Marantz' 2020-2021 slimline series receivers with the updated PCm5102A DACs after the AK fire. Supposedly the NR series does not have Marantz' infamous HDAM/JDAM/AMRAAM/NSAM/AMTRAK or whatever they are called. I recently came into ownership of a Cosmos ADC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

I will remeasure my NR1710 and 1506 with better gear, but right now the setup still too noisy for HQ measurements. But if you use analogue in, direct/pure direct and set speakers to small, subwoofer on, and LFE+main, you have low THD+N with subwoofer function. It might even work having Audyssey correction in the subwoofer if you use analogue in, auto mode, and L/R bypass mode, but these things need to be checked/measured. Otherwise you get higher distortion and jitter (but 1711 might be different...). Seems to be some clipping also when volume knob is set high; >1Vrms preout or so seems to clip, probably same pattern internally. See the NR1200 review, getting THD+N below -100 dB on pre-out. Same problem with Denon? Seems these gear can get a myriad of results depending on the settings.

 

[tc2007]

Yeah feature, price and ease to use wise, these Marantz slim receivers are hard to beat.

 

[Thomas_A]

A small update here with some measurements using the E1DA ADC for better performance. In principle the "quirks" of the NR1710 is confirmed and is also most likely applicable of the NR1510 that Amir reviewed here.

Input is Topping D10s analogue out at full gain, 1 kHz.

Setting of the NR1710 is direct mode, volume setting 77, pre out:

The THD+N is -93.5 dB which is ok for such an amp. However...

Using the auto mode (and results that also implicate digital in), there is jitter confirmed. I tried many settings of the AVR but no luck to remove jitter:

As seen the THD-N drops to around -87 dB, which still is ok, but something that should not happen.

Now why is Amir seeing such high harmonic distortion of the NR1510?

If I raise the volume to 80 I get the following, so results replicated:

The amp seems to be overdriven at volume settings above 80. The same is seen also for the NR1200 amp, here.

So in conclusion. The NR1510/1710 amps have quirks. But their performance is however not as bad in reality. When I use my amp I very seldom listen to volume settings above 80, if ever. It depends of course of the recorded level of the source. Using a separate DAC, you can get THD+N below -93 dB, but you loose the Audyssey functions. You can however still use the amplifiers subwoofer and x-over functions. With full function you get THD+N around -87 dB, as long as you don't listen at very high volumes. Of course the distortions seen here will follow in the power amp section as well. More measurements will come of the power amp.

 

[Tangband]

A small update here with some measurements using the E1DA ADC for better performance. In principle the "quirks" of the NR1710 is confirmed and is also most likely applicable of the NR1510 that Amir reviewed here.

Input is Topping D10s analogue out at full gain, 1 kHz.

Setting of the NR1710 is direct mode, volume setting 77, pre out:
View attachment 307395
The THD+N is -93.5 dB which is ok for such an amp. However...

Using the auto mode (and results that also implicate digital in), there is jitter confirmed. I tried many settings of the AVR but no luck to remove jitter:
View attachment 307396
As seen the THD-N drops to around -87 dB, which still is ok, but something that should not happen.

Now why is Amir seeing such high harmonic distortion of the NR1510?

If I raise the volume to 80 I get the following, so results replicated:
View attachment 307397
The amp seems to be overdriven at volume settings above 80. The same is seen also for the NR1200 amp, here.

So in conclusion. The NR1510/1710 amps have quirks. But their performance is however not as bad in reality. When I use my amp I very seldom listen to volume settings above 80, if ever. It depends of course of the recorded level of the source. Using a separate DAC, you can get THD+N below -93 dB, but you loose the Audyssey functions. You can however still use the amplifiers subwoofer and x-over functions. With full function you get THD+N around -87 dB, as long as you don't listen at very high volumes. Of course the distortions seen here will follow in the power amp section as well. More measurements will come of the power amp.

Interesting measurements .

To get a better sound, I would try to better the worst stage in the music chain, the one with worst SINAD. If the pre amp has a SINAD of 93 below 1 volt, I would buy a poweramp with the same sinad or better .

I have recently bought an audiophonics HYPEX nc250 power amp and during extended listening, the conclusion is its a very good sounding poweramp. I would guess the cheaper nc125 is sounding the same or even better ( higher sinad ) .

Recently, I have tested many class A/B amplifiers ( the last one was a Rega Brio newest version ) and none of those comes close to the ncore in sound quality in my opinion.

I think that such a poweramp would probably be a very big soundupgrade for you , using the pre out from the Marantz. The HYPEX ncore has rather high sensitivity so you just need 1 volt or less out from preamp .

 

[Thomas_A]

Interesting measurements .

To get a better sound, I would try to better the worst stage in the music chain, the one with worst SINAD. If the pre amp has a SINAD of 93 below 1 volt, I would buy a poweramp with the same sinad or better .

I have recently bought an audiophonics HYPEX nc250 power amp and during extended listening, the conclusion is its a very good sounding poweramp. I would guess the cheaper nc125 is sounding the same or even better ( higher sinad ) .

Recently, I have tested many class A/B amplifiers ( the last one was a Rega Brio newest version ) and none of those comes close to the ncore in sound quality in my opinion.

I think that such a poweramp would probably be a very big soundupgrade for you , using the pre out from the Marantz. The HYPEX ncore has rather high sensitivity so you just need 1 volt or less out from preamp .

Thanks Tangband,

This is my plan to upgrade with two power amps (one for the top speakers, one for the two subs, and it will probably be the Audiophonics variants).

Regarding measurements, I realise that the E1DA ADC is not ideal to use for testing without a buffer. So I am now ordering the E1DA Scaler giving an input impedance of 100 kOhm and output of 10 Ohm. It seems that not only frequency response but also noise and distortion levels are affected without a buffer (which may be evident also in the case with mac mini->D10s->E1DA measurements). So the THD+N numbers are probably lower than I can measure with the E1DA ADC alone.

 

[Tangband]

Thanks Tangband,

This is my plan to upgrade with two power amps (one for the top speakers, one for the two subs, and it will probably be the Audiophonics variants).

Regarding measurements, I realise that the E1DA ADC is not ideal to use for testing without a buffer. So I am now ordering the E1DA Scaler giving an input impedance of 100 kOhm and output of 10 Ohm. It seems that not only frequency response but also noise and distortion levels are affected without a buffer (which may be evident also in the case with mac mini->D10s->E1DA measurements). So the THD+N numbers are probably lower than I can measure with the E1DA ADC alone.

Looking forward to your measurements of the Marantz poweramp.
I have another question - do you notice any soundimprovements with the topping d10s compared to the Marantz dac ?

 

[Thomas_A]

An additional test of the Marantz, 1.0V on pre out, with digital/optical in, and three different settings of the E1DA ADC. One can see that noise and distortion change with setting. THD+N -89 dB at best setting and 1.0V output - or SINAD 89 . (Strange though that Amir only got SINAD 82 dB of the NR1510 at 1.0V output.)