A discussion on audio "Need", "Having enough", "Audibility", "Want", "Excessive", "Ego" etc.

[PristineSound]

I've been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for sometime now. There is a recent thread on monoblock amps which pushed me to start this thread.

Here at ASR, we see Amir doing many tests on electronics and many of them are hitting 120db SINAD. Some of the members here gloat about the performance of these products, some don't think much of it.

I see two major camps here (and I know I am generalizing as there are many nuances to this and these two camps may be the extreme of each side and yes there are those in between):

(1) The utilitarian - These guys generally look for a deal as they don't like to spend too much. They don't care about aesthetics or the brand too much. 120dB SINAD probably isn't the thing that makes their boat float; value and affordability is. They find these SOTA products wasteful. They may argue that the other camp are buying these expensive products or SOTA measurements for their egos.

(2) The spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers - These guys get excited when they see 120db SINAD. They appreciate the engineering feat. They are willing to spend more money to get what they want even if what they want doesn't make an audible difference. Aesthetics matters for these guys, they gush over thick aluminum casework that adds 50% cost to the product. They may argue the other camp are just a bunch of cheapo racing to the bottom of the barrel.

I am seeing these two camps clashing quite a bit in a few threads lately.

First. let's talk about the threshold of audibility: I found couple of threads on this topic, you all can visit and discuss it here and here. Also Gene over at Audioholics even did a video on "Stop chasing SINAD," I think it's a good watch.

This threshold of audibility has become the battleline between these two camps. I've seen one camp gush over SOTA specs, then the other camp comes in and immediately demanding for proof that such SOTA makes any difference. I've seen one camp disparaging highly affordable and great performing equipment from China (I admit I have criticized the aesthetics and built quality of these products myself). This causes a lot of strain and rift within ASR.

I would like to offer the view of the guys from the camp of spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers (or maybe just my view):

• Yes, I know I unlikely can't hear the difference between 100dB SINAD vs 120db SINAD. While I did say that I can hear the audible difference in your imagination; but in real life, I never said I can.
• Everyone is at a different point in their life and everyone has a different comfort level of spending regardless how much disposable income they may have. No need to make anyone feel bad or attack their decision.
• People in this camp, appreciate the engineering feat to achieve 110db SINAD in a power amplifier, it's a damn hard feat to achieve. I know I appreciate the Benchmark AHB2, it's a part of audio history in my opinion, which is why I own one.
• People in this camp appreciate the aesthetics of well design and well built products, it fits in their living space well and it makes their boat float.

The key takeaway here is when someone gushes over SOTA specs, they are not necessarily saying it's audible, but they are certainly admiring the engineering feat and throwing out facts about the specs and measurements.

And to my fellow spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers, it's perfectly OK to chase specs and spend money on over the top gear if that is what you choose, despite you can't hear the difference and you are not getting a good value; that is part of a hobby.

But I think we all here can agree that no one should be buying expensive cables

 

[Berwhale]

I feel like this thread will start more arguments than the ones it's discussing

 

[PristineSound]

I feel like this thread will start more arguments than the ones it's discussing

I wonder if these arguments will be about the last line I wrote about cables

 

[Barrelhouse Solly]

Audio is a hobby for many. I can understand wanting the best for its own sake rather than for its actual utility. I like our Subaru. It does what I want a car to do, which is basic transportation. It's not a Range Rover or Mercedes or something more exotic. It doesn't bother me that some people want cars that are capable of performance you'll never be able to use legally on a public road or with interiors much more luxurious than I'm willing to settle for. I'm the same way about audio. I first noticed that my hearing was starting to decline when I was 30. I got a hearing test that proved it. I was raised by an aggressive cheapskate so I tend to feel guilty about spending money. In audio I go for the gear that performs slightly better than I can hear. My audiogram shows that, even with hearing aids, mid-fi does that for me. OTOH, I don't think that people who spend much more than I do on gear are foolish. They're buying something different from what I'm buying and it's not a bad thing.

 

[antcollinet]

I've been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for sometime now. There is a recent thread on monoblock amps which pushed me to start this thread.

Here at ASR, we see Amir doing many tests on electronics and many of them are hitting 120db SINAD. Some of the members here gloat about the performance of these products, some don't think much of it.

I see two major camps here (and I know I am generalizing as there are many nuances to this and these two camps may be the extreme of each side and yes there are those in between):

(1) The utilitarian - These guys generally look for a deal as they don't like to spend too much. They don't care about aesthetics or the brand too much. 120dB SINAD probably isn't the thing that makes their boat float; value and affordability is. They find these SOTA products wasteful. They may argue that the other camp are buying these expensive products or SOTA measurements for their egos.

(2) The spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers - These guys get excited when they see 120db SINAD. They appreciate the engineering feat. They are willing to spend more money to get what they want even if what they want doesn't make an audible difference. Aesthetics matters for these guys, they gush over thick aluminum casework that adds 50% cost to the product. They may argue the other camp are just a bunch of cheapo racing to the bottom of the barrel.

I am seeing these two camps clashing quite a bit in a few threads lately.

First. let's talk about the threshold of audibility: I found couple of threads on this topic, you all can visit and discuss it here and here. Also Gene over at Audioholics even did a video on "Stop chasing SINAD," I think it's a good watch.

This threshold of audibility has become the battleline between these two camps. I've seen one camp gush over SOTA specs, then the other camp comes in and immediately demanding for proof that such SOTA makes any difference. I've seen one camp disparaging highly affordable and great performing equipment from China (I admit I have criticized the aesthetics and built quality of these products myself). This causes a lot of strain and rift within ASR.

I would like to offer the view of the guys from the camp of spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers (or maybe just my view):

• Yes, I know I unlikely can't hear the difference between 100dB SINAD vs 120db SINAD. While I did say that I can hear the audible difference in your imagination; but in real life, I never said I can.
• Everyone is at a different point in their life and everyone has a different comfort level of spending regardless how much disposable income they may have. No need to make anyone feel bad or attack their decision.
• People in this camp, appreciate the engineering feat to achieve 110db SINAD in a power amplifier, it's a damn hard feat to achieve. I know I appreciate the Benchmark AHB2, it's a part of audio history in my opinion, which is why I own one.
• People in this camp appreciate the aesthetics of well design and well built products, it fits in their living space well and it makes their boat float.

The key takeaway here is when someone gushes over SOTA specs, they are not necessarily saying it's audible, but they are certainly admiring the engineering feat and throwing out facts about the specs and measurements.

And to my fellow spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers, it's perfectly OK to chase specs and spend money on over the top gear if that is what you choose, despite you can't hear the difference and you are not getting a good value; that is part of a hobby.

But I think we all here can agree that no one should be buying expensive cables

Seems to me you are creating two camps that don't exist. Like everything it is much more complicated than that.

First - few clash. I don't need 120dB sinad - if you want it - have at it. Just don't tell me i'm a half wit for not valuing it**. But as an engineer, I'm more than happy to give the Kudos to the team that can achieve it - and if all else is equal, I'll choose the device with the higher Sinad.

Second - you rarely have to pay good money for high Sinad results - even the cheapest topping / SMSL products are routinely delivering high sinad.

Third I don't care one way or the other for Sinad much above 100dB - but show me a case milled from a solid billet of aluminium and I'd be all over it - if I didn't have to pay stupid money for it.


Etc
Etc.

**EDIT : and most important of all - don't go telling (misleading) people they must have the 120dB Sinad device, when the 100dB one will suit them just as well, or better, because other features (or price) more closely meet what they are looking for.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

ftmp, people here are "chasing specs" because of the fact that we are mostly beyond the point where audible differences can be had and there's nothing much to chase other than better and better measurable performance. I don't choose to buy a dac that has 120db SINAD because I can hear the difference between it and 105db sinad. I choose it because it exists, and is no more costly than the one with lower sinad.

 

[Sgt. Ear Ache]

Seems to me you are creating two camps that don't exist.

this. It's the same old strawman that gets thrown down all the time here..."ASR - just a bunch of SINAD chasers." These engineering feats don't have to cost luxury money at all in this day and age...

The proof that people around here are asking for usually has nothing to do with SOTA specs and everything to do with someone claiming they CAN hear differences between things that measure exactly the same.

 

[JPA]

What is the point of this thread?

 

[ryanosaur]

W
T
F
?

 

[kemmler3D]

I tried to write a thread sort of like this a long time ago, nobody really liked it. The gist was to classify the different types of audiophiles. Ultimately I concluded you can do this, but I'm not sure it helps to point it out. People have different bottom-line beliefs and motivations when it comes to audio equipment and they are not all rationally compatible:

* Price / performance is most important.
* Absolute performance is most important.
* Fidelity via objective standards is most important.
* Aesthetic/ luxury experience is most important.
* Subjective/ emotional experience of gear is most important.
*Subjective listening experience with conditional or no regard for objective standards is most important.

I think most / all audiophiles fit into one of these camps more than they fit into any other. However, you will find it difficult to get people to admit that they don't have a balanced approach to all of them, so the discussion will not tend to solve anything.

 

[tengiz]

Since the OP clearly stated the inherent generalization and explicitly acknowledged that the reality is more nuanced - I don't see the need to give the OP a hard time for, well, generalizing. Many of us are engineers and are perfectly familiar with the concepts of orthogonal bases and superposition.

As for the topic itself: I think a lot of us chase specs beyond the audible range simply for peace of mind - some comfortable headroom - not because it's actually critical. Nothing more.

 

[Groove01]

I've been thinking about starting a thread on this topic for sometime now. There is a recent thread on monoblock amps which pushed me to start this thread.

Here at ASR, we see Amir doing many tests on electronics and many of them are hitting 120db SINAD. Some of the members here gloat about the performance of these products, some don't think much of it.

I see two major camps here (and I know I am generalizing as there are many nuances to this and these two camps may be the extreme of each side and yes there are those in between):

(1) The utilitarian - These guys generally look for a deal as they don't like to spend too much. They don't care about aesthetics or the brand too much. 120dB SINAD probably isn't the thing that makes their boat float; value and affordability is. They find these SOTA products wasteful. They may argue that the other camp are buying these expensive products or SOTA measurements for their egos.

(2) The spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers - These guys get excited when they see 120db SINAD. They appreciate the engineering feat. They are willing to spend more money to get what they want even if what they want doesn't make an audible difference. Aesthetics matters for these guys, they gush over thick aluminum casework that adds 50% cost to the product. They may argue the other camp are just a bunch of cheapo racing to the bottom of the barrel.

I am seeing these two camps clashing quite a bit in a few threads lately.

First. let's talk about the threshold of audibility: I found couple of threads on this topic, you all can visit and discuss it here and here. Also Gene over at Audioholics even did a video on "Stop chasing SINAD," I think it's a good watch.

This threshold of audibility has become the battleline between these two camps. I've seen one camp gush over SOTA specs, then the other camp comes in and immediately demanding for proof that such SOTA makes any difference. I've seen one camp disparaging highly affordable and great performing equipment from China (I admit I have criticized the aesthetics and built quality of these products myself). This causes a lot of strain and rift within ASR.

I would like to offer the view of the guys from the camp of spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers (or maybe just my view):

• Yes, I know I unlikely can't hear the difference between 100dB SINAD vs 120db SINAD. While I did say that I can hear the audible difference in your imagination; but in real life, I never said I can.
• Everyone is at a different point in their life and everyone has a different comfort level of spending regardless how much disposable income they may have. No need to make anyone feel bad or attack their decision.
• People in this camp, appreciate the engineering feat to achieve 110db SINAD in a power amplifier, it's a damn hard feat to achieve. I know I appreciate the Benchmark AHB2, it's a part of audio history in my opinion, which is why I own one.
• People in this camp appreciate the aesthetics of well design and well built products, it fits in their living space well and it makes their boat float.

The key takeaway here is when someone gushes over SOTA specs, they are not necessarily saying it's audible, but they are certainly admiring the engineering feat and throwing out facts about the specs and measurements.

And to my fellow spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers, it's perfectly OK to chase specs and spend money on over the top gear if that is what you choose, despite you can't hear the difference and you are not getting a good value; that is part of a hobby.

But I think we all here can agree that no one should be buying expensive cables

This seems very similar to the utilitarian vs sports car owners. Or the luxury watch vs the $30 watch owner.

Both cars will get you from A to B and both watches will tell time.

The utilitarian in both instances likely derives little to no joy and could care less about how the car “handles” or in the case of watches the craftsmanship, or the fact it can be maintained and handed down to the next generation, etc. Because they derive no joy in these things, they can’t perceive how others could either - it’s not logical to them.

Likewise the sports car owner can’t perceive how the utilitarian could live with taking a mile to hit 55mph when he can do it within 100ft - lol. The utilitarian is also not likely passing cars on the freeway and probably drives the speed limit on the dot.

My takeaway is it’s not really worth debate because one side can never really appreciate the other’s POV because it simply doesn’t resonate. They can however respect each others POV and that should be the goal.

 

[antcollinet]

Approximate number of "camps" of members on ASR right now:

 

[respice finem]

I certainly don't know enough yet (that's why I'm here mainly), so just my subjective two cents, maybe helpful for you, otherwise just ignore it:

In my long and sinful life I have seen many "highs and lows" and believe to know roughly, what usually works well practically, and what has little chance to, regardless of brand, price and even personal bias or preferences.

1. The "magic" is in the music, any gear is a tool, not less, not more. Anyone with basic know-how will achieve more with just sufficient tools, than a "rookie" with "million dollar babies". Diminishing returns start lower than decades ago, much lower.
2. Even the best gear has little chance to "shine", if basic conditions for correct stereo aren't met, which is not rare. The simplest immediate (and free) upgrade can be a smaller stereo triangle and a hearing position away from walls. Yes, not everybody can do it, but many can and don't, trying to "bribe" physics with new gear, which won't improve much, because it can't.
3. Acoustic treatment of a room and EQ should be used together and not alternatively, if really good sound quality is the goal.
4. There is IMHO no such thing as a really wide stereo sweet spot (it's either not too wide or not too sweet). That may be a bit different with multichannel.
5. For headphones fans: The "world's best headphone" will end up lying around, if it doesn't fit your head/ears.

Generally: The worst single fallacy in audio is believing to hear "everything and more". Nobody's perfect.

Last but not least: It's a hobby. Not a cult, not a war, no matter of life or death. Peace...

 

[respice finem]

This seems very similar to the utilitarian vs sports car owners. Or the luxury watch vs the $30 watch owner...

Good point. At least for watches, it doesn't have to be one way or the other. I wouldn't wear my more precious watches for garden work or such, or the cheap ones for a "suit and tie" meeting. Same goes for audio, at least when having more rooms/setups than one.

Audio as a hobby is very forgiving, so to speak, if you just want a bit better sound as average, and at the same time unforgiving if you want really top results.
Thus, everyone will have to find his own "perfect for me" level, or he will never settle. And, as the best and most expensive watch will "improve" the real time", the best audio setup won't "extract" more from music "material", than it actually contains.

 

[pablolie]

...I see two major camps here (and I know I am generalizing as there are many nuances to this and these two camps may be the extreme of each side and yes there are those in between):

(1) The utilitarian - These guys generally look for a deal as they don't like to spend too much. They don't care about aesthetics or the brand too much. 120dB SINAD probably isn't the thing that makes their boat float; value and affordability is. They find these SOTA products wasteful. They may argue that the other camp are buying these expensive products or SOTA measurements for their egos.

(2) The spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers - These guys get excited when they see 120db SINAD. They appreciate the engineering feat. They are willing to spend more money to get what they want even if what they want doesn't make an audible difference. Aesthetics matters for these guys, they gush over thick aluminum casework that adds 50% cost to the product. They may argue the other camp are just a bunch of cheapo racing to the bottom of the barrel.

I would contend that the audio hobby is extremely *individual* and the concept of "camps" is an illusion, because passionate fights are just likely to emerge within the "camps" about stuff. Ritual disagreement just seems to be embedded into audio forums, topic by topic.

.... First. let's talk about the threshold of audibility: I found couple of threads on this topic, you all can visit and discuss it here and here. Also Gene over at Audioholics even did a video on "Stop chasing SINAD," I think it's a good watch.

This threshold of audibility has become the battleline between these two camps. ...

There are disagreements about audibility within the "measurement chaser" camp quite regularly, at least I have seen them happen with regularity. That's also exactly why there's zero agreement on what the real threshold of audibility is within that very "camp". You'd think it'd be as easy as lining up 500 volunteers for an audibility test on some basic measurements, but now, that hasn't happened and I doubt it ever will. Archimago started doing it ages ago, and yet there always was the usual backlash ("the music sucked"... "one can't relax it is not enjoyable"... bla bla). I have stated, for a long time, that when "measurement addicts" claim to hear a difference in 0.5dB even in the presence zone (where we are most sentitive), it is just as biased as thinking stuff sounds better because one dropped a magic crystal on top of their amp.

I've seen one camp gush over SOTA specs, then the other camp comes in and immediately demanding for proof that such SOTA makes any difference.

Well, isn't that what you're doing now? And it *is* a legitimate challenge, in my opinion. I would never run out get the latest DAC because the SINAD is 120dB rather than a supposedly horrible 114dB.

I've seen one camp disparaging highly affordable and great performing equipment from China (I admit I have criticized the aesthetics and built quality of these products myself). This causes a lot of strain and rift within ASR.

They seem to be the best measuring in individual product categories. Good for them. My issue is the stagnant feature set of those devices. Gen after gen they improve SINAD by a single additional 1dB, and while that's admirable engineering, it's IMO (a) waaaay out of audibility (b) I'd rather get two sub outs with configurable xover frequencies and offer room correction integration. To me usability matters (a lot).

I would like to offer the view of the guys from the camp of spec/measurement chaser and luxury indulgers (or maybe just my view):

• Yes, I know I unlikely can't hear the difference between 100dB SINAD vs 120db SINAD. While I did say that I can hear the audible difference in your imagination; but in real life, I never said I can.

I could not care less if a DAC now has a SINAD of 120 vs 115 in the previous model. Yet many audiophiles claim they can hear a difference between the Benchmark DAC3 vs the DAC2. That should be very easy to disprove.

• Everyone is at a different point in their life and everyone has a different comfort level of spending regardless how much disposable income they may have. No need to make anyone feel bad or attack their decision.

There clearly is very little correlation between $-spend and genuine audio performance, so that's a completely flawed line of argument. It's been proven (i.e. "measured") so often it's silly to still dispute it.

• People in this camp, appreciate the engineering feat to achieve 110db SINAD in a power amplifier, it's a damn hard feat to achieve. I know I appreciate the Benchmark AHB2, it's a part of audio history in my opinion, which is why I own one.

I had one and sold it. I listened endlessly and while it sounds undoubtedly fantastic, "fantastic" is also the exact same adjective to describe the equipment I compared it against in tedious and frustrating listening tests.

• People in this camp appreciate the aesthetics of well design and well built products, it fits in their living space well and it makes their boat float.

I fall into that camp.

The key takeaway here is when someone gushes over SOTA specs, they are not necessarily saying it's audible, but they are certainly admiring the engineering feat and throwing out facts about the specs and measurements.

I celebrate the engineering feat, but again, I also want certain basic features. A stand alone DAC with a 126dB SINAD is DOA to me if it doesn't support stuff like intelligent bass management, because without it it's never going to sound that great out "in the wild" (and I don't want additional boxes to do it, sorry).

...
But I think we all here can agree that no one should be buying expensive cables

We shall see about it. And -what's expensive to some is cheap to others.

 

[PristineSound]

Good point. At least for watches, it doesn't have to be one way or the other. I wouldn't wear my more precious watches for garden work or such, or the cheap ones for a "suit and tie" meeting. Same goes for audio, at least when having more rooms/setups than one.

I would argue that by virtue owning an "more precious" watch that you don't like to wear often to keep of from damage, you see value in these luxury watch. Of course you can own some cheap watches too.

 

[RickS]

I feel like this thread will start more arguments than the ones it's discussing

I agree. It may be fine if better thought out but seems too reactive. Locking for now.