A dedicated preamp in 2023...?

[Dilliw]

I got rid of my preamp in 2018 and replaced it with my phone, LDAC, and a BT receiver. Haven't missed it yet.

 

[pablolie]

I got rid of my preamp in 2018 and replaced it with my phone, LDAC, and a BT receiver. Haven't missed it yet.

I have never owned a dedicated pre-amp other than the Benchmark DAC2HGC (which I currently don't use, either). I have always preferred the single-box integrated amplifier approach. And these days, my major consideration is not if, but when to switch to active speakers. But very happy with my current system, even though it is 1/10th the cost of the system I had pre-divorce.

 

[JeffS7444]

There are enough threads on ASR about DAC volume malfunctions blowing speakers that I would always recommend having at least some form of analog attenuation between a DAC and amplifier.

Preamps can misbehave too, particularly if the designer doesn't consider situations where the system is powered on and off via a central location, or there's a brief power outage. One device in my system which is an absolute champ in that regard, is ironically also one of the least expensive: Behringer DEQ2496: When power is interrupted, it goes into full relay-switched bypass.

 

[holbob]

There are enough threads on ASR about DAC volume malfunctions blowing speakers that I would always recommend having at least some form of analog attenuation between a DAC and amplifier.

I assume an amplifier with a gain knob (I don't mean volume control) will do the same thing?

 

[dualazmak]

I have never owned a dedicated pre-amp other than the Benchmark DAC2HGC (which I currently don't use, either). I have always preferred the single-box integrated amplifier approach. And these days, my major consideration is not if, but when to switch to active speakers. But very happy with my current system, even though it is 1/10th the cost of the system I had pre-divorce.

Fully agreed, same here!

Even in my PC-DSP multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier fully-active stereo audio setup, I have always preferred suitable HiFi "integrated amplifiers" based on many reasons and factors such as cost-effectiveness, market availability, service/maintenance availability, "right-person-in-right-place" selectivity, safety in flexible on-the-fly relative gain (tone) control, etc.

My latest system setup can be found here and here. Summary of my long and intensive amplifier exploration journey in my project, including the (my) pros for "integrated" amplifiers, can be found here.

Of course we should be always careful enough about "ignition/start-up sequences" and "shut-down sequences" in any type of multi-amplifier audio setup, as I shared here; even though I have protection capacitors for my gem midrange, tweeter, super-tweeter.

 

[Sokel]

Preamps can misbehave too, particularly if the designer doesn't consider situations where the system is powered on and off via a central location, or there's a brief power outage. One device in my system which is an absolute champ in that regard, is ironically also one of the least expensive: Behringer DEQ2496: When power is interrupted, it goes into full relay-switched bypass.

Even better that except the relays and mute to have the ability for a hard default same source selected when turns on,so you can ignore it and plug everything to any other input.
Can't be safe enough,we're not talking only about gear and blown speakers,it's our ears to protect from a sudden 0db in it's full glory.

 

[JeffS7444]

I have never owned a dedicated pre-amp other than the Benchmark DAC2HGC (which I currently don't use, either). I have always preferred the single-box integrated amplifier approach. And these days, my major consideration is not if, but when to switch to active speakers. But very happy with my current system, even though it is 1/10th the cost of the system I had pre-divorce.

Has your DAC2HGC been well-behaved? As delivered, mine was an ill-mannered beast, and it wasn't until firmware 2.3(?) that I felt I was getting the goods I paid for. No idea how a firmware update tamed it's propensity for belching out DC, but it mostly did.

 

[ErVikingo]

It's literally impossible to change the volume in the digital domain without changing the bits - think about it!

Yup, that i my point but I mentioned it since some sellers say that there are bit perfect digital volume controls.

 

[NiagaraPete]

There are enough threads on ASR about DAC volume malfunctions blowing speakers that I would always recommend having at least some form of analog attenuation between a DAC and amplifier.

Or is it 50/50 human error? I’d go 70/30 human error.

 

[pablolie]

Has your DAC2HGC been well-behaved? As delivered, mine was an ill-mannered beast, and it wasn't until firmware 2.3(?) that I felt I was getting the goods I paid for. No idea how a firmware update tamed it's propensity for belching out DC, but it mostly did.

Issue with mine was sudden and intolerable power-supply whine. Was out of warranty but only $200 or so to fix, and their service is excellent. Still a weird thing to happen in a $2k device within 4 years. On the plus side, it forces me to implement an "emergency system" that is eminently functional and totally satisfies my needs for now.

 

[pablolie]

Or is it 50/50 human error? I’d go 70/30 human error.

Today's "state of art" 300W+ power amps are just far less forgiving of such errors, whatever the cause, they'll blow pretty much every speaker to smithereens if something goes wrong. Which is why I am not a fan of our growing audiophile obsession with the ability of an amp to provide 20-20k Hz at high SPL. I'd rather have Purifi and Hypex provide us with clean 100W or so, and offload the Watt-consuming bass frequencies to a competently set-up sub.

A few years ago... let's just say I unexpectedly spent the night at someone's place and it was an eventful night, with the added FX of real world thunder and lightning that is sure to cause crazy issues in the California power grid. When I returned to my place the next morning, I could hear super loud noise as soon as I parked my car outside. My digital streamer had turned crazy and was blasting music at 100% volume. The speakers survived the onslaught, my relationship with those neighbors didn't. I did luckily had a passive preamp (Creek I recall) between the streamer and -at that time- the active speakers. The back of the active speakers was red hot, but they survived.

 

[JeffS7444]

Even better that except the relays and mute to have the ability for a hard default same source selected when turns on,so you can ignore it and plug everything to any other input.
Can't be safe enough,we're not talking only about gear and blown speakers,it's our ears to protect from a sudden 0db in it's full glory.

Oh yes, I've had that 0 dB thing happen to me once - really wakes a person up! Caused by flakey firmware, long since addressed, though it took awhile before I felt really confident using the DAC as a pre. Were I to replace it today, I'd verify that it's successor was well-behaved before connecting the speakers.

In 2020, I completed assembly of one of the last old-school (tape loop!), fully analog preamplifiers. No remote control, no CPU, just ganged push button switches for source selection, and an actual volume control potentiometer, albeit a linear pot. So it never "forgets" it's settings. But at this point, I've grown sufficiently comfortable using the DAC as the preamplifier, that the actual preamplifer mostly gets used as a phono preamplifier.

 

[SIY]

Changing the least or most significant bit it still changing a bit. But I know what you mean - it's not something to loose any sleep over

Actually, it's more usually 32 or 64 bits for the volume scaling calculation.

 

[pablolie]

Actually, it's more usually 32 or 64 bits for the volume scaling calculation.

I don't doubt you at all, but why? Even 8 bits give you 256 volume level steps (I know it is not linear, simplifying here) without impacting Red Book 96dB signal-to-noise the least. That said, yes, you are correct, that is state-of-art stuff. It's just I find it funny audiophiles seem to obsess about such things with digital volume control... while never seeming to worry about the potential issues of analog preamps, which are probably one of the most complex analog devices if designed to provide total signal integrity.

 

[SIY]

I don't doubt you at all, but why? Even 8 bits give you 256 volume level steps (I know it is not linear, simplifying here) without impacting Red Book 96dB signal-to-noise the least. That said, yes, you are correct, that is state-of-art stuff. It's just I find it funny audiophiles seem to obsess about such things with digital volume control... while never seeming to worry about the potential issues of analog preamps, which are probably one of the most complex analog devices if designed to provide total signal integrity.

Maybe I misread, but I'm distinguishing between step size and bit accuracy.

 

[pablolie]

Maybe I misread, but I'm distinguishing between step size and bit accuracy.

Didn't disagree with you at all. Guess my point is I am totally ok with 96dB SNR and 256 volume steps. :-D

 

[kemmler3D]

I don't doubt you at all, but why?

If you scale the signal in floating point (32 or 64) then adding noise by truncating bits is a very, very distant. not a concern, even compared to doing it in 24-bit integers. DAWs have been using >32 bits for internal processing for decades now, for the same reason.

 

[pablolie]

If you scale the signal in floating point (32 or 64) then adding noise by truncating bits is a very, very distant concern, even compared to doing it in 24-bit integers. DAWs have been using >32 bits for internal processing for decades now, for the same reason.

Indeed, agree. My point was just that even at 24 bits there should be less concern in the digital volume-control domain that I'd have with a pure analog preamp. That's just my opinion, not picking fights with platinum ears here. :-D

 

[kemmler3D]

Indeed, agree. My point was just that even at 24 bits there should be less concern in the digital volume-control domain that I'd have with a pure analog preamp. That's just my opinion, not picking fights with platinum ears here. :-D

I don't disagree, the only times I've been able to hear quantization noise, it's been when I quantized down to like 10 or fewer bits for a special effect, or in a classroom demo where someone normalized a very, very quiet tail of piano reverb or something.

 

[Berwhale]

Actually, it's more usually 32 or 64 bits for the volume scaling calculation.

Yes, I know, 24 bits was not my assertion. But I think the point stands that, generally speaking, we have sufficient resolution in the digital domain to avoid audible degradation when applying volume control there - at least, that's my understanding after reading the various technical discussions on ASR combined with my somewhat rusty knowledge from undergraduate Engineering, Physics and Computing courses.