A dedicated preamp in 2023...?

[Snix]

Given the line output signal quality (and voltage) of DACs these days, as well as amps input sensitivity,
do we still need a dedicated preamp nowadays? (of course assumed one or both of them have vol control)
I guess if someone might need 10 source inputs or something, then probably yes?
If someone might want to alter (sabotage) the sound, then yes?

For the context, I looked at Topping's Pre90 homepage the other day and just wondered out of the blue.

 

[TonyJZX]

i find it a tad ironic that Topping have a $600 preamp when its their DACs that need it the most!

this topic gets dragged out quite often and most people would think a good dac w/ remote and vol. knob + something like an Audiofonics sub $500 ncore power amp would be very very good for the money assuming you dont have any analog sources.

i'm in two minds about this... on the one hand i can see why spending $1k+ on a line stage preamp with vol. and remote is kind of... why?

 

[MaxwellsEq]

There may be a few reasons, such as analogue inputs (e.g. turntables), and concerns that DACs with attenuators built in may suddenly go to their default of 100% output.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

Given the line output signal quality (and voltage) of DACs these days, as well as amps input sensitivity,
do we still need a dedicated preamp nowadays? (of course assumed one or both of them have vol control)
I guess if someone might need 10 source inputs or something, then probably yes?
If someone might want to alter (sabotage) the sound, then yes?

For the context, I looked at Topping's Pre90 homepage the other day and just wondered out of the blue.

If you're asking this question, it definitely means you don't need a preamp with input switcher and all.
As for the rest of the people - everyone has different audio systems and different needs.

"If someone might want to alter (sabotage) the sound, then yes?"
Your DAC must have an analog part and it is most likely no better than a good preamplifier. And it could be worse, everything can be.

 

[JohnnyNG]

I guess if someone might need 10 source inputs or something, then probably yes?

Or just two, then probably yes.

 

[Joe Smith]

This is why I have and use restored receivers for a number of my setups. The preamp sections in my Kenwood, Yamaha and Marantz receivers are all good. I also use unrestored Nikko and NAD preamps occasionally. It's nice to have many inputs and a phono pre in one unit to keep down on clutter.

Other setups, I'm going source direct into an amp with volume control, or I have a simple passive pre (Alps pot with some resistors) left over from the days when I was building TPA3116 and 3118 amps.

 

[pablolie]

Something like the Benchmark DAC3HGC *is* designed to act as a preamp. But to me, these days I'd demand subwoofer output (with configurable xover) and something like Dirac as functionality for a versatile setup. Then again, with stuff like the KEF LS60 or LS50W, one wonders if anything other than a network connection is needed... :-D

 

[JeffS7444]

A DAC equipped with volume control can serve as a perfectly satisfactory replacement for a preamplifier, but it probably won't offer additional controls, such as balance, tone controls, rumble filter, and what-not.

 

[ErVikingo]

I prefer to have an analog (or bit perfect digital) volume control plus, in my case, I need the different inputs.

 

[Rednaxela]

bit perfect digital) volume control

What makes a digital volume control bit perfect?

 

[ErVikingo]

What makes a digital volume control bit perfect?

some brands say that their digital volume controls do not change the bits when attenuating the volume. I'm no engineer but I don't think that is possible. Thus why I use an analog preamp. Now, can you hear the difference that is another topic and hopefully the discussion does not go on a tangent about that.

 

[Doodski]

some brands say that their digital volume controls do not change the bits when attenuating the volume. I'm no engineer but I don't think that is possible. Thus why I use an analog preamp. Now, can you hear the difference that is another topic and hopefully the discussion does not go on a tangent about that.

I have my pre-amp/headphone amp at the setting where if I max out the YouTube media player volume and max out the Windows volume mixer then the headphone amp preamp is maxed out too. Everything is maxed out at same time per say. I can handle the SPLs. It's loud but not painful.

 

[ErVikingo]

I have my pre-amp/headphone amp at the setting where if I max out the YouTube media player volume and max out the Windows volume mixer then the headphone amp preamp is maxed out too. Everything is maxed out at same time per say. I can handle the SPLs. It's loud but not painful.

Rock on!

 

[Berwhale]

some brands say that their digital volume controls do not change the bits when attenuating the volume. I'm no engineer but I don't think that is possible. Thus why I use an analog preamp. Now, can you hear the difference that is another topic and hopefully the discussion does not go on a tangent about that.

It's literally impossible to change the volume in the digital domain without changing the bits - think about it!

 

[Rednaxela]

I'm no engineer but I don't think that is possible.

Agree.

Thus why I use an analog preamp. Now, can you hear the difference that is another topic

Well, even if you can’t hear it there are methods to perfectly assess which one of the two is cleaner. I’m willing to bet this is more often the non-bit-perfect digital one than you think.

and hopefully the discussion does not go on a tangent about that.

Agree.

 

[pablolie]

It's literally impossible to change the volume in the digital domain without changing the bits - think about it!

With 24 bits you have plenty of headroom to not mess with the "relevant music bits".

 

[Berwhale]

With 24 bits you have plenty of headroom to not mess with the "relevant music bits".

Changing the least or most significant bit it still changing a bit. But I know what you mean - it's not something to loose any sleep over

 

[AaronJ]

A DAC equipped with volume control can serve as a perfectly satisfactory replacement for a preamplifier, but it probably won't offer additional controls, such as balance, tone controls, rumble filter, and what-not.

There are enough threads on ASR about DAC volume malfunctions blowing speakers that I would always recommend having at least some form of analog attenuation between a DAC and amplifier.

 

[Rednaxela]

Isn’t that what proper gain staging is?

 

[kemmler3D]

Given the line output signal quality (and voltage) of DACs these days, as well as amps input sensitivity,
do we still need a dedicated preamp nowadays?

Not really, I had a dedicated pre and then realized it was redundant. Currently using Topping DX5 lite with remote volume control straight to Nc500 poweramps.

(of course assumed one or both of them have vol control)
I guess if someone might need 10 source inputs or something, then probably yes?

Maybe, yes.

If someone might want to alter (sabotage) the sound, then yes?

No, my main system runs through a PC and then on to the DX5, so I mangle the sound pretty well (EQAPO) without the benefit of a pre.