A case for warm (vintage) amplifiers

[audio_tony]

If anything, the 'warmth' attributed to vintage gear is more likely due to the paper cone tweeters often used at the time. These tweeters typically had a limited HF response and rolled off pretty quickly at the limit of their top end.

Dome tweeters (metal, cloth or otherwise) were typically only used in expensive speakers. I don't remember when their use became widespread in budget speakers.

 

[AJM1981]

All of the '70s amps I've tested are 'unvoiced'. Even the Aiwa micro amp I have is unvoiced. Same for the Mitsubishi gear I have and tested. The Yamahas from that era I have are unvoiced, despite the persistent urban legend that Yamaha Natural Sound components from that era are somehow distinguishable from other unvoiced amps. I also haven't heard any gear from that era that was significantly voiced, unless the tone controls or loudness switches were adjusted. Lots of us, fed up with the lack of audible voicing our amps had, warm or otherwise, opted for graphic equalizers. Or better speakers.

The mid-70s world of engineering was rooted for a heading towards digital (CD) as a new consumer medium. Digital audio was the 'buzz'. Quad (for example) went from tube amplifiers to solid state, with the introduction of the 303. Often been mentioned as a leap in consumer audio and ready for a new age. Solid state was a slow progress towards the 'readiness' for digital consumer media.

Sansui's line of amplifiers have different characteristics along that transitional way. They offcourse have always claimed to deliver perfect sound, but there was a gradual shift in how 'perfect sound' was perceived. Which is audible. If you connect the au111 (late 60s) and compare it to the au317 (late 70s) the characteristics are different. With everything in line between shifting gradually. I will leave it to those who measure and judge if they agree or not.

I don't think any hard claims are made by just indicating gradual shifts from analog on the way to a new age of digital consumer media and why the 70s were not the 60s.

 

[DSJR]

The mid-70s world of engineering was rooted for a heading towards digital (CD) as a new consumer medium. Digital audio was the 'buzz'. Quad (for example) went from tube amplifiers to solid state, with the introduction of the 303. Often been mentioned as a leap in consumer audio and ready for a new age. Solid state was a slow progress towards the 'readiness' for digital consumer media.

Sansui's line of amplifiers have different characteristics along that transitional way. They offcourse have always claimed to deliver perfect sound, but there was a gradual shift in how 'perfect sound' was perceived. Which is audible. If you connect the au111 (late 60s) and compare it to the au317 (late 70s) the characteristics are different. With everything in line between shifting gradually. I will leave it to those who measure and judge if they agree or not.

I don't think any hard claims are made by just indicating gradual shifts from analog on the way to a new age of digital consumer media and why the 70s were not the 60s.

When I once challenged the then Quad UK rep/sales manager about amps 'all' sounding the same, he claimed that all 'Quad' amps sounded the same, power output apart. They had a display case at a show once, with switch-box and headphones to switch between the II valve pair, a 303 and 405 I remember. Music was 'light' I recall and via the 'phones (maybe Stax, I can't remember now as it was decades ago), they did indeed all sound the same.

1970s solid state amps, even 'good' ones, had all distortion measurements bordering on the audible (with sinad surely in the 30s to 60s on some favoured expensive amp confections) and back then, even the Martin Colloms tests of the mid 80s when 'high end' became desirable for all manner of reasons and some younger yuppie-style fellas could afford to splash out on such gear (ARC, Krell, Levinson and so on into Apogee panels, which were fashionable back then).


Almost all amps from the 70s and early 80s, had sensitivities of a few hundred millivolts only and some with active line buffers before the volume pot could overload with the max 2V output of a CD player. This I think, still lingers as Amir has found when testing some integrated amps (I'm reminded of the Hegel review, which used increasingly out-dated gain structures internally, shown with the limited output of the 'preamp' output sockets)

 

[mpw]

The case for warm vintage amps is that they sound musical with all their supposed flaws and bad measurements the vintage era created some wonderful audio components. The advent of the CD almost ruined high-end audio as we were told that the little CD was better and more detailed then the old vinyl, 44k could give us all we needed. The great bands of 60's and 70's created their music on tube gear that had soul drawing one into the music. I do have au-505 which sounds great (meaning its musical, dynamic and Non-Fatiguing) playing: rock, jazz, classical, electronica all vinyl. I really don't care about measurements, etc. What good is it if system sounds very detailed/clean but after 5 minutes you can't stand listening to the system. Most Nashville studio musicians use more vintage tube gear, vintage guitars, vintage/tube out board gear to get away from a clinical analytical sound, tape machines are at times still used.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I really don't care about measurements

I'm afraid you've stumbled into the wrong forum.

 

[MAB]

The case for warm vintage amps is that they sound musical with all their supposed flaws and bad measurements the vintage era created some wonderful audio components. The advent of the CD almost ruined high-end audio as we were told that the little CD was better and more detailed then the old vinyl, 44k could give us all we needed. The great bands of 60's and 70's created their music on tube gear that had soul drawing one into the music. I do have au-505 which sounds great (meaning its musical, dynamic and Non-Fatiguing) playing: rock, jazz, classical, electronica all vinyl. I really don't care about measurements, etc. What good is it if system sounds very detailed/clean but after 5 minutes you can't stand listening to the system. Most Nashville studio musicians use more vintage tube gear, vintage guitars, vintage/tube out board gear to get away from a clinical analytical sound, tape machines are at times still used.

No, people spreading falsehoods about CD actually ruined music reproduction for vast legions of consumers, with negative impact to consumers lasting until this day.

The thing you don't understand, lots of those old vintage pieces have fantastic measurements. Much of the gear back in the day was developed using... measurements and good engineering practices. It was standard practice to publish accurate specs back then.

I think people these days have become weak with fatigue, claiming all sorts of maladies as soon as they hear something they don't like, or see a piece of equipment they don't care for irrespective of the sound.

 

[Mart68]

The case for warm vintage amps is that they sound musical with all their supposed flaws and bad measurements the vintage era created some wonderful audio components. The advent of the CD almost ruined high-end audio as we were told that the little CD was better and more detailed then the old vinyl, 44k could give us all we needed. The great bands of 60's and 70's created their music on tube gear that had soul drawing one into the music. I do have au-505 which sounds great (meaning its musical, dynamic and Non-Fatiguing) playing: rock, jazz, classical, electronica all vinyl. I really don't care about measurements, etc. What good is it if system sounds very detailed/clean but after 5 minutes you can't stand listening to the system. Most Nashville studio musicians use more vintage tube gear, vintage guitars, vintage/tube out board gear to get away from a clinical analytical sound, tape machines are at times still used.

You're confusing creating music with reproducing it. When I was around the business back in late 80s early 90s no-one involved - not the artists or the production people - rated vinyl records at all. In their view they degraded the sound that they'd worked so hard to create.

There's no need to use 1970s amplifiers to get fatigue free sound, I doubt it has any bearing on it at all. Fatigue is usually a result of using bad speakers in a highly reflective acoustic (like the typical modern, minimalist, scandi-style living room).

I suspect part of this comes from the look of the 70s amplifiers, especially recievers with their illuminated tuning dials. Lots of warm looking lamps and red LEDS, warm looking wooden side cheeks or cases. Whereas your modern amp - brushed aluminium and blue LEDS. Just have to sound cold and uninviting don't they?

 

[DanielT]

Those solid state vintage amplifiers, receivers from the 70s. If you hear something warm ( I exclude the probably biggest factor imagination based on preconceived ideas) then they probably color the sound because they are not up to spec, but I guess even more likely that the tone controls have drifted so FR is no longer flat. Maybe flabby bass due to low damping factor can play with the old machines but I think that is more unlikely.

But that doesn't stop me from buying them. Now purchased at a reasonable used market price an Hitachi HMA-650 power amplifier. It works as it should. DC offset checked, no humming from the transformer, no hissing in the speakers. The little I have listened to, I dare say that it does not "color" the sound. I use it with amp load kind speakers, 90 dB sensitivity so it is not a difficult task for it.

To be honest, I actually bought the HMA-650 just for the VU meters.

By the way. I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to buy half a century old, soon to break down, need to be repaired, serviced, tinkered with and so on amps/receivers other than for their looks.
If they work well or ok, my experience is that they do not lose value. If you do a good market check on prices before buying of course. That is another advantage compared to new which loses value immediately. But note that this is provided that the vintage amp/receiver does not break down, requiring repair that is. It is a question of when not if that will happen.

 

[Mart68]

I see absolutely no reason whatsoever to buy half a century old, soon to break down, need to be repaired, serviced, tinkered with and so on amps/receivers other than for their looks.

The looks is a good enough reason especially when you see some of the modern horrors. Worth the extra cost and hassle of getting them overhauled.

I only have one 1970s amp left, HK930



Or you could have this instead



No contest is there?

 

[DanielT]

No contest is there?

An easy choice regarding looks, for me anyway.

Advantage of class D amps, besides performance vs vintage, is that they are often not that big. Can be hidden away. That way you don't have to see them.

 

[Mart68]

An easy choice regarding looks, for me anyway.

Advantage of class D amps, besides performance vs vintage, is that they are often not that big. Can be hidden away. That way you don't have to see them.

True and some want it all hidden away but I think most want a cool looking system on display. What else explains the high prices a lot of the 1970s amps are now fetching? I've had that HK930 about ten years, it's done better than gold.

 

[pinger]

The case for warm vintage amps is that they sound musical with all their supposed flaws and bad measurements the vintage era created some wonderful audio components. The advent of the CD almost ruined high-end audio as we were told that the little CD was better and more detailed then the old vinyl, 44k could give us all we needed. The great bands of 60's and 70's created their music on tube gear that had soul drawing one into the music. I do have au-505 which sounds great (meaning its musical, dynamic and Non-Fatiguing) playing: rock, jazz, classical, electronica all vinyl. I really don't care about measurements, etc. What good is it if system sounds very detailed/clean but after 5 minutes you can't stand listening to the system. Most Nashville studio musicians use more vintage tube gear, vintage guitars, vintage/tube out board gear to get away from a clinical analytical sound, tape machines are at times still used.

LOL rock bands use distortion to get the sound they want. We dont need or want that from our audio components. I want to hear what the original performance sounded like distortion and all which CD/digital and Solid state amps will show more accurately than adding more distortion with old tube amps. I think you are mixing/confusing the making of the music vs the playback of the recorded music

 

[pinger]

True and some want it all hidden away but I think most want a cool looking system on display. What else explains the high prices a lot of the 1970s amps are now fetching? I've had that HK930 about ten years, it's done better than gold.

That HK amp is cool. The Marantz may as well be hidden away. Who wants to look at a black box LOL?

 

[RexrothPigeon]

True and some want it all hidden away but I think most want a cool looking system on display. What else explains the high prices a lot of the 1970s amps are now fetching? I've had that HK930 about ten years, it's done better than gold.

easy: the people who have nostalgia for 1970s hifi are old men, the richest demographic there is

 

[Mart68]

easy: the people who have nostalgia for 1970s hifi are old men, the richest demographic there is

I thought the 'Millenium hipster' crowd were into them too? Of course it's only speculation but someone's keeping the prices high.

I was in the charity shop looking at CDs and there were two proper hipsters in there looking at the vinyl (good luck - unless you're into Tom Jones or Lonnie Donnegan).

They had the goatee beards and the man-bags. First time I've seen any round here but there's a lot of student accommodation round abouts now.

 

[DanielT]

True and some want it all hidden away but I think most want a cool looking system on display. What else explains the high prices a lot of the 1970s amps are now fetching? I've had that HK930 about ten years, it's done better than gold.

That's right. Those HK receivers from that era have gone up in price. Also noted on Skylab Audio.

Skylabs Audio

Skylabs is a brick and mortar store located in West Des Moines, Iowa. We specialize in HI-FI stereos and vinyl records. For those of you too far away to travel to the store- check out skylabsaudio.com Sorry, we do not sell our vintage stereo equipment on-line. Honestly, we would have no reason...

youtube.com

Even my HK330C has gone up in price in the six years (or so) I've had it.

By the way. Who needs tube glow in the dark when you have:

easy: the people who have nostalgia for 1970s hifi are old men, the richest demographic there is

Buy now what they (we) didn't have money for when they were young. Reasonable assumption.

Edit:
Here is a video about the price trend of vintage hifi. Examples of some sought-after receivers, turntables, cassette decks and speakers are discussed. Even old boomboxes, at ridiculously high prices in my opinion, are addressed:

 

[Mart68]

Buy now what they (we) didn't have money for when they were young. Reasonable assumption.

It is, done that myself, but I don't think that's the sole driver of the price inflation.

You see a few manufacturers like NAD offering retro styling and class D, I suspect that's not aimed at the boomers.

 

[mhardy6647]

By the way. Who needs tube glow in the dark when you have:

but... but... it's not glowing orange!
easy fix:

in all (well... in some) seriosness, the hk330c was a particularly nice little entry-level receiver. 20 wpc and a very decent FM section.
Elegant cosmetics, too.
Most if not all were made by Inkel in Korea, if memory serves.
They were (as some would put it) hella popular at my alma mater in those smoky hazy days.

 

[mpw]

No, people spreading falsehoods about CD actually ruined music reproduction for vast legions of consumers, with negative impact to consumers lasting until this day.

The thing you don't understand, lots of those old vintage pieces have fantastic measurements. Much of the gear back in the day was developed using... measurements and good engineering practices. It was standard practice to publish accurate specs back then.

I think people these days have become weak with fatigue, claiming all sorts of maladies as soon as they hear something they don't like, or see a piece of equipment they don't care for irrespective of the sound.

Yes, but relied on their ears along with a background in tube equipment. They were building circuits that resembled an analog concept rather then digital. The inventors of CD's made wild claims that measurements suppose showed that a CD could capture all the sound that a human could hear thus get rid of Lp's and endorse CD's.

 

[Mart68]

The inventors of CD's made wild claims that measurements suppose showed that a CD could capture all the sound that a human could hear

That's not a wild claim, it's true!