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A case for warm (vintage) amplifiers

The fundamental problem with electrostatic transducers is that they're essentially capacitors (high pass filters); their impedance "naturally" drops to near zero at high frequencies. Some ss amplifiers (especially of old) didn't like that very much.

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Transformer coupled vacuum tube (or transistor, most likely) amplifiers just kind of smile and nod and get on about their business.

see also, e.g., https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-quad-esl-57-your-opinions-experience.36559/
 
If its so easy why has there never been a documented double blind test proving that differences are audible and can be identified? Also dont you think if it could be proven manufacturers would use it to sell their products? The fact that they dont tells you all you need to know. I'm speaking of course about SS amps
Sansui followed the hi-fi path up to the 1990s and does not exist anymore. How would they be able to promote their 70s gear in 2025? And why?. Maybe they would have launched a classic line, knowing there would be people who like that particular voicing. Best guess.

And as I think I have highlighted a couple of times as a disclaimer in the opening. It is not a crime to put on a different cap in a studio and at home. There is a sharp difference between low and high fidelity when putting AM radio quality vs FM radio quality to draw a line. But when minor differences in bass handling techniques and roll off are present, would we go into territory to label something an effects box or lower fidelity?

I just personally from the perspective of also being a consumer think it is a really enjoyable amplifier. I once owned the Quad 303/33 that came in as the more accurate measured system (especially the 303), with Peter Walker totally ahead of the troops opting for the path some are defending (and which I am not attacking) , but it, along with the 33 still had a slightly warmer voicing compared to (for example) a Nad 314. And opting for lower or higher damping factors are details on the same page. All hi-fi territory.

Which reminds me.. I still would like to try out the Quad 303 without the 33 once :)
 
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I read the Dire Straits' Brothers in Arms was a showcase for a louder endproduct and that the stretch that digital media provided was key to creating the monster of Frankenstein (the loudness war). : )
Speaking of which. With listening examples too:

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I found that from this thread:

 
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A little demonstration of the au505. If not for the sound demo, it's still for the picture. Maybe not at all representative, but in the corner "better than nothing".
 
The fundamental problem with electrostatic transducers is that they're essentially capacitors (high pass filters); their impedance "naturally" drops to near zero at high frequencies. Some ss amplifiers (especially of old) didn't like that very much.

View attachment 484706

Transformer coupled vacuum tube (or transistor, most likely) amplifiers just kind of smile and nod and get on about their business.

see also, e.g., https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...r-quad-esl-57-your-opinions-experience.36559/
I read that the Au-505 has a class A pre-amp stage. Just wondering if that is a 'thing' of any value. Is it something that adds audioscience or purist value or does it not really matter practically?
 
This is my warm, big, class AB, main system amplifier :). After some toddling with class D nCore and Purifi modules, I have humbly returned to the good old discrete class AB amplifiers ;).

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I read that the Au-505 has a class A pre-amp stage. Just wondering if that is a 'thing' of any value. Is it something that adds audioscience or purist value or does it not really matter practically?
Aren't almost all pre amps (separate or in integrated amplifiers) class A designs? Vintage as well as newly designed ones? Can you shed some light on that @pma ?
This is my warm, big, class AB, main system amplifier :). After some toddling with class D nCore and Purifi modules, I have humbly returned to the good old discrete class AB amplifiers ;).

View attachment 489308

How come you did that?
 
I must ask why are vintage automatically assumed to be warm and musical :rolleyes: some kind of lost art from when times where better ;)
There is not really a clear seperation between cool and warm by time. There were and are manufacturers that at some moment followed the Quad philosophy, or made moves towards CD, producing near studio monitor voiced amplifiers. And there are those that have a certain warm signature.

There are these popular personal theories that 'manufacturers' ears were used to tubes' with brands like Sansui, but this is not really the case. Given the time (early 70s) there was vinyl content that went way back and some, for example earlier live Jazz recordings were almost razor sharply harsh. Live rock often had some mic feedback issues. In those days there were some good recordings between a lot of bad ones. Nowadays its the other way round.

A lot of these pressings have not made it to CD or got some remastering to remove that harshness. Having a warm voiced consumer amp tuning down the edges did a good job. And made good sense in those days. You did not want to "hear through" those details with a lot of content as the beeps and the squeeks were ear drum punching (to exaggerate by a mile). As recording philosophy and media evolved, sensing details gradually became a new hand-in-hand obsession.
 
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As recording philosophy and media evolved, sensing details gradually became a new hand-in-hand obsession.
wut? hifi mags back in the 60s and 70s were very definitely interested in reproducing fine details in audio. or am I misunderstanding you somehow?
 
wut? hifi mags back in the 60s and 70s were very definitely interested in reproducing fine details in audio. or am I misunderstanding you somehow?
The 60s and 70s were different times.

An average consumer in the 60s would not easily get access to the finest recording on the best medium (Reel to reel) So, reaching full potential with hi-fi was not like it is these days. A reviewer might have had a demonstration of some sort. But it was potential that was practically never reached by the largest group of consumers. That also applied more or less in the 70s. But with a key difference.

Producers, labels, R&D of home gear manufacturers were aware of the developments of the CD prototype by the mid 70s (The first prototype was released in the early 80s) So, for the first time apart from some niche disc formats they had sight on a certain new age that the original studio recordings could be almost 1:1 transferred onto something uncompromising and crystal clear for the masses of end users. Which replaced vinyl. The best metaphor I can find is the time that everything "TV" became HD-ready. No HD yet, but... wait for it.

Musicians and producers alike were already working ahead to be CD-ready with a lot of more focus on smoothness of recordings and many remasters of albums were made after because both the CD and the hifi that moved along revealed too much.. In some ways the CD has shaped the music profile of the 80s hit lists along. Kenny G, sterile synthesizers, polished rock. An enormous engineering drive to create demo material for the new medium.

So, in a verifyable way.. there is a different world before the transition of the mid 70s (the seeds to the modern hi-fi world), and the 60s. If you bought an amp in the early 70s there was a lot of content in the pop-world that required cutting of harsh edges of certain Jazz records as they were not "insightful". Just listen to some obscure recording by Gillespie. And material like that was plenty on vinyl. To battle that "in your face" sound, amp voicing gave a form of compression.

Things that got later in the 80s tackled with true compression to get the dynamics right for CD and brighter voiced gear with a lot of treble and bass cranking (not having the "needle-management" dilemma with bass) Different eras, One limited (analog), one kind of unlimited (digital). And we like to all see it through the same glasses we see the world of music nowadays. They are truly different.

Sansui also gradually went from warm to a modern voicing along with that timeline mentioned from early to late 70s. Their early warm voiced amplifiers gradually became less warm in sound and more "CD-Ready" by the time their audio unit (au) 317 entered the market.

Sidenote: even classical music had a certain "brilliance' strive along time. Violins have increased in pitch, beyond a440. flutes along. With Operasingers complaining that it asks more than regular strain on their vocal chords.
 
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The 60s and 70s were different times.

An average consumer in the 60s would not easily get access to the finest recording on the best medium (Reel to reel) So, reaching full potential with hi-fi was not like it is these days. A reviewer might have had a demonstration of some sort. But it was potential that was practically never reached by the largest group of consumers. That also applied more or less in the 70s. But with a key difference.

Producers, labels, R&D of home gear manufacturers were aware of the developments of the CD prototype by the mid 70s (The first prototype was released in the early 80s) So, for the first time apart from some niche disc formats they had sight on a certain new age that the original studio recordings could be almost 1:1 transferred onto something uncompromising and crystal clear for the masses of end users. Which replaced vinyl. The best metaphor I can find is the time that everything "TV" became HD-ready. No HD yet, but... wait for it.

Musicians and producers alike were already working ahead to be CD-ready with a lot of more focus on smoothness of recordings and many remasters of albums were made after because both the CD and the hifi that moved along revealed too much.. In some ways the CD has shaped the music profile of the 80s hit lists along. Kenny G, sterile synthesizers, polished rock. An enormous engineering drive to create demo material for the new medium.

So, in a verifyable way.. there is a different world before the transition of the mid 70s (the seeds to the modern hi-fi world), and the 60s. If you bought an amp in the early 70s there was a lot of content in the pop-world that required cutting of harsh edges of certain Jazz records as they were not "insightful". Just listen to some obscure recording by Gillespie. And material like that was plenty on vinyl. To battle that "in your face" sound, amp voicing gave a form of compression.

Things that got later in the 80s tackled with true compression to get the dynamics right for CD and brighter voiced gear with a lot of treble and bass cranking (not having the "needle-management" dilemma with bass) Different eras, One limited (analog), one kind of unlimited (digital). And we like to all see it through the same glasses we see the world of music nowadays. They are truly different.

Sansui also gradually went from warm to a modern voicing along with that timeline mentioned from early to late 70s. Their early warm voiced amplifiers gradually became less warm in sound and more "CD-Ready" by the time their audio unit (au) 317 entered the market.

Sidenote: even classical music had a certain "brilliance' strive along time. Violins have increased in pitch, beyond a440. flutes along. With Operasingers complaining that it asks more than regular strain on their vocal chords.
again, wut?
This weird lecture is immaterial. You claimed that people in hi-fi weren't seeking details prior to the CD, which is belied by even a perfunctory perusal of the hifi publications of the 1960s and 1970s. Seriously: go read those articles; they were seeking detail and they wrote about its pursuit. They didn't have access to it like we do today, in most cases (although it was absolutely possible--some gear even in those days was objectively accurate) and they didn't have such easy access to the measurements that help us more easily identify it today, of course.

This stuff about "warm" and "modern voicing" is also hand-wavy, but I don't really care about that because what's the point.
 
Voicing is just a shorthand for intentional frequency response shaping and nonlinear "behaviour tuning", which is not the goal of amp design or hi-fi. Once one does this on purpose, it starts to become an effects box. We want a flat FR and minimal noise and distortion in hi-fi audio, simples.


JSmith
 
I admit I didn't read every post but the whole idea of non-linear amps being preferred is odd. Why would anyone want an amp to be imparting any non-adjustable eq?

ps I find the concept of "voicing" suspect altogether, maybe with speakers but with electronics?
 
All of the '70s amps I've tested are 'unvoiced'. Even the Aiwa micro amp I have is unvoiced. Same for the Mitsubishi gear I have and tested. The Yamahas from that era I have are unvoiced, despite the persistent urban legend that Yamaha Natural Sound components from that era are somehow distinguishable from other unvoiced amps. I also haven't heard any gear from that era that was significantly voiced, unless the tone controls or loudness switches were adjusted. Lots of us, fed up with the lack of audible voicing our amps had, warm or otherwise, opted for graphic equalizers. Or better speakers.
 
audio unit (au)
The "A" in Sansui model numbers stands for "amplifier" and not "audio" -- e.g. my old AU-555A amp had a companion tuner, the TU-666, and the pricey, high-tech (for its time) AU-X1 amp was paired with the equally fancy TU-X1 tuner.
 
The "A" in Sansui model numbers stands for "amplifier" and not "audio" -- e.g. my old AU-555A amp had a companion tuner, the TU-666, and the pricey, high-tech (for its time) AU-X1 amp was paired with the equally fancy TU-X1 tuner.
Amplifying Unit does not make much sense in line.

· BA - Basic Amplifier (Power Amplifier)
· CA - Control Amplifier (Pre-Amplifier)
· TU - Tuning Unit (Tuner)
· AU - Audio Unit (Integrated Amplifier)
 
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