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A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

I would argue about tooling by itself.
Tooling plus education on the other hand always worked, even 20 years ago, before the robotics.

A PhD in physics helps a lot for example:

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If the assertion under recent discussion is, "today's speakers are only an increment better than the speakers of the 70's, and not a major leap", then I think the assertion doesn't hold up.

I think the audio research into listener preference, combined with the development of a measurement suite (with target KPIs) that reliably indicates higher listener preference, occurred about half way through that 50 year period, and facilitated something of a revolution. For the first time, speaker designers actually had something to aim for that wasn't just personal philosophies and hopefully-common sense. And in the last decade or so, it seems that more speakers have appeared than we might have realised, that must have been aiming at those KPI targets. At every price point. I call that a major leap.

Also, the rise of DSP for active speakers, and complex modelling for passive speaker crossovers, is facilitating the arrival of speakers with axial frequency responses that are flat to a degree that wasn't happening in the 70's. And flat in a way that indicates that cone and diaphragm resonances are better dealt with today. A better-than-incremental improvement.

The arrival of shallow tweeter waveguides that control beamwidth, and new HF horn contours that focus on constant directivity, has facilitated a better-than-incremental advance in what we hear from the room reflections, and what our companion listeners in the room hear.

Subwoofers were almost unheard of in the 70's, and results were abysmal when tried, doing little other than amplifying the number and amplitude of room mode resonances and nulls. Advancements in audio science into optimal subwoofer positioning and the benefits of multiple subwoofers, combined with the emergence of room EQ systems that actually work at bass frequencies, has been a genuine leap in performance for both solo and multiple listeners.

When we add all of the above together, and remember that they are appearing at every price point, IMHO we have to conclude that it constitutes a major leap.

cheers
 
When I see spins like these in modern day speakers relative to the best of the best in the 70's, 80's and even 90's, it does make me want to use the term "mops the floor".

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The effectiveness of spins varies with rooms--some rooms need the smooth directivity that a spin shows more desperately than others.

And Floyd Toole was measuring directivity in the Canadian National Research Council anechoic chamber started decades before working for Harman, and he certainly taught them how to make measurements of directivity part of the design process for several of their brands (particularly including Revel).

The NFS is a way to get anechoic measurements without the anechoic chamber. I would say that an anechoic chamber is the gold standard for speaker frequency response and directivity measurements, subject to: 1.) staying above the anechoic threshold frequency, and 2.) taking the measurements from the appropriate locations.

What the NFS does is to apply rather advanced calculations to measure and then filter out the effects of the room in which the scanner sits, so as to eliminate the effects of reflections. The MLSSA was an earlier way to attempt this. The NFS system is quite expensive, but it's cheaper than a proper anechoic chamber.

What the designer does with the anechoic measurements is a whole other question.

The need for smooth directivity based on multipoint measurement emerged when? 80's? By the 90's, there were example products incorporating the principle, and it had already been incorporated to various extents prior to that time with less clear ways to measure it. The concepts were clarified greatly by Floyd, but they were understood at least on an intuitive level by others.

McIntosh built its anechoic chamber (a big one) in the middle 70's. Prior to that time, they used different approaches, even including tools like the opposite of an anechoic chamber--the reverberant room. But they didn't use it for measuring directivity, or at least not with the same level of understanding we have gained from Floyd's work on directivity.

Floyd has told us that a good speaker has a first priority, which is flat frequency response on axis. The second priority is eliminating audible resonances. Having great directivity doesn't help if those first two priorities are not achieved (but the flat frequency response is possible using equalization).

I think there has been quite a lot of advancement in the use of, say, subwoofers to address room resonances below the Schroeder frequency where equalization is less effective. I see that as application more than design, though.

I think my 20-year-old Revel F12's stand up to the current Concerta towers quite well, and where there has been a measurable improvement has been solving the distortion problem at the crossover point (the F12 has a distortion peak at about 1.2 KHz that later models do not have). But the new ones don't extend into the bass as well at as high a listening level. Clearly Revel understood the importance of good directivity back then and before then--the all-important wave guide surrounding the tweeter is much more like current models than it is like anything made in the early 90's or earlier. (They also understood dynamics, which I think is remarkable at the original price point of the Concerta models.) (And I should add that PA speaker designers sure understood directivity, but perhaps for difference reasons--horn designs varied from long-throw exponential horns to short-throw bi-radial horns. An effects like diffraction and so on were certainly on the minds of designers of old.)

Rick "the F12's were $1600 a pair when new" Denney
 
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If the assertion under recent discussion is, "today's speakers are only an increment better than the speakers of the 70's, and not a major leap", then I think the assertion doesn't hold up.
Even speakers from the 80's, 90's and 2000's aren't objectively incrementally less performant than speakers of today.

I believe I was the one who first made this statement, which I knew I may be calling someone's baby ugly. But facts are facts, and in 10-20 years my baby will too be ugly, and I can't wait to disown and disavow my ugly babies so I can upgrade. . . hopefully my hearing is good enough at that time.
 
Above 600Hz, the Salon 2 is just a 4-inch midrange and a 1-inch tweeter, generally situated too high for most listeners (which is why Floyd Toole had his personal Salon 2s installed upside-down :oops: ). It's very hard for me to believe that there have been no improvements since then. And indeed the spinorama above 600Hz is, well, just not very good by modern standards, in either smoothness or directivity.

 
which is why Floyd Toole had his personal Salon 2s installed upside-down :oops: )
Sorry, not so. It was done because the right speaker, if floor standing, would have been roasted by an adjacent fireplace. However, having done it, I came to enjoy an orchestra that originated above my shoulders :) . It also placed the soundstage at the same height as the projection screen. I would do it again. The height of the tweeter is less important than the reference axis, which can be tilted electronically. The transducer count allowed the system to play as loud as I could stand and still sound good.

Several recent designs have smoother frequency responses, but the Salon 2 had no disruptive resonances - the most important starting point. It was clearly around the point of diminishing returns in terms of sound quality. Slide show 6 in the 4th edition website shows numerous examples of better and worse loudspeakers.
 
Sorry, not so. It was done because the right speaker, if floor standing, would have been roasted by an adjacent fireplace. However, having done it, I came to enjoy an orchestra that originated above my shoulders :) . It also placed the soundstage at the same height as the projection screen. I would do it again. The height of the tweeter is less important than the reference axis, which can be tilted electronically. The transducer count allowed the system to play as loud as I could stand and still sound good.

Several recent designs have smoother frequency responses, but the Salon 2 had no disruptive resonances - the most important starting point. It was clearly around the point of diminishing returns in terms of sound quality. Slide show 6 in the 4th edition website shows numerous examples of better and worse loudspeakers.
I am so glad you clarified why you had it upside down, there are so many self-proclaimed speaker experts and internet sleuths attempting all sorts of explanations over the years. And most of them thought it had something to do with sound, one person even chastised me that it made a lot of sense, if I had more knowledge and knew how speakers worked.

I had thought that you just didn't want to replace your existing media-shelf, looks like my guess is closer to the real reason than many of these other speculations :)
 
And most of them thought it had something to do with sound, one person even chastised me that it made a lot of sense, if I had more knowledge and knew how speakers worked.
It could be argued that it pretty much eliminates the traditional floor bounce :D, although that was not my reason.
 
It could be argued that it pretty much eliminates the traditional floor bounce :D, although that was not my reason.

mmm, if the driver(s) reproducing the lower midrange, below middle C, are equidistant (or close) from ceiling, front wall, and side wall, there will still be a big ol' power response notch somewhere 100-300Hz, right?
 
It could be argued that it pretty much eliminates the traditional floor bounce :D, although that was not my reason.

I was actually going to ask you about that.

As I understand it, floor standing speakers are, unsurprisingly, designed with the expectation of sitting on the floor. So the driver choice/arrangement/crossovers etc. take floor boundary reinforcement into consideration. And they are measured that way.

The implication being if you start raising a speaker off the floor you risk changing the tonal balance designed for that loudspeaker.

Would that be right?

Aside from changes in the soundstage presentation, did you deal with any changes to the tonal character of the Salons when raised off the floor and placed upside down?
 
>> So the driver choice/arrangement/crossovers etc. take floor boundary reinforcement into consideration. And they are measured that way.

Not commonly. Just look at all the designs with woofers well up on the cabinet. The number of designers who understand the Allison Effect seems to me to be waning by the year. (Or conversely they deny it because they take 'direct' measurements and don't care to properly understand boundary augmentation in domestic rooms.)

It's all explained here, simply, a half-century ago:
https://www.worldradiohistory.com/A...iFI-Stereo/70s/HiFi-Stereo-Review-1976-08.pdf

and there is even a simple xls program predicting how driver cabinet placement and boundary placement will go:
https://wiki.midwestaudio.club/doku.php?id=software:baffle_diffraction_and_boundary_simulator
 
It could be argued that it pretty much eliminates the traditional floor bounce :D, although that was not my reason.
Haven't read 4rh ed yet. But how sensitive are we to floor bounce?
 
Haven't read 4rh ed yet. But how sensitive are we to floor bounce?
Here's a dirty and quick one with and without carpet:

Now you can somehow, roughly, extrapolate that to distance, etc.
 
However, having done it [upside-down Salons], I came to enjoy an orchestra that originated above my shoulders :) . It also placed the soundstage at the same height as the projection screen. I would do it again.
Interesting, but were there any consequences for integration with the centre speaker?
 
Haven't read 4rh ed yet. But how sensitive are we to floor bounce?
I read that since there is always floor bounce, even outdoors, we are evolutionarily adapted to it. But I don't know if that's really the case.

I think there was also some experiment where they removed floor bounce and the subjects found it sounded unnatural.
 
I read that since there is always floor bounce, even outdoors, we are evolutionarily adapted to it. But I don't know if that's really the case.

I think there was also some experiment where they removed floor bounce and the subjects found it sounded unnatural.
The old myth says, "near floor woofer = more impact".

Probably one of the thoughts taken out of intuition (so probably wrong) , as near floor woofer means stronger floor interaction, by SPL alone plus the boundary thing.
While I can see the case with a light, wooden floor, I can't see it in case of concrete and tiles like mine, in that case interaction must be minimal by even loud-ish SPL.

The overall path to MLP and angle must be also similar, no matter the height.
 
mmm, if the driver(s) reproducing the lower midrange, below middle C, are equidistant (or close) from ceiling, front wall, and side wall, there will still be a big ol' power response notch somewhere 100-300Hz, right?
Yes - acoustics 101 - but each room setup is distinctive in some ways. In my case the ceiling was high and angled so L & R boundary interactions were different. There was essentially no side wall on the right and one on the left, creating asymmetry, and the rear (front) wall was highly irregular in depth thereby spreading the acoustical cancellations over a frequency range. See the pic below. So, the fact that I utilized an existing room, not a dedicated - usually strictly symmetrical - home theater was in this respect advantageous. None of these boundary issues showed up in measurements - the room modes dominated, and multilple subwoofers solved the problem.
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Interesting, but were there any consequences for integration with the centre speaker?
It was a concern of mine, but previous experiences had persuaded me that it might not be a problem. First, vertical localization is not very precise, "blur" is very large. See Section 7.3 in the 4th edition. Jens Blauert reports that the blur is about 9 deg for a familiar voice, 17 deg for an unfamiliar voice. To this is added the powerful ventriloquism effect. What we see on the screen is taken as powerful evidence of location. It turns out that in my situation it was never a recognized problem. Lucky?
 
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