A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

[Jack B]

When I go to listen to a symphony in an auditorium, the music comes from the front. The soundstage is very distinct and focused in front of me; no sound comes from behind or above.

Absolutely not my experience! At a symphony performance I prefer to sit a number of rows back so as to be able to enjoy the "hall sound" along with the direct sound from the instruments.

 

[olieb]

Absolutely not my experience! At a symphony performance I prefer to sit a number of rows back so as to be able to enjoy the "hall sound" along with the direct sound from the instruments.

Not only that, but everyone in the hall (even in first row or the musicians themselves) experience the reverb from all around.
In some sense the musicians play "the hall" by means of their "instrument" (which becomes the interface and the "motor"). The hall with its reverb is an essential part of the musical apparatus.

This video [link to the most relevant passage for this (about 2min)] has some quite instructive sound examples.

It is from this thread

I'm developing a new kind of reverb technology

Hey everyone, I thought this might be a good place to share this because you guys very much know the issues with a speaker's directivity and how it interacts with the room. This phenomenon is extremely important for convolution reverbs, which has been the most realistic reverb technique yet, but...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Arindal]

At a symphony performance I prefer to sit a number of rows back so as to be able to enjoy the "hall sound" along with the direct sound from the instruments.

Balance between direct sound and reverb in a concert hall, with the position of its equality known as critical listening distance, is vastly different from venue to venue, as well as placement of instruments and singers. And of course it's also a matter of personal preference and taste, as well as the intension of the composer. There are some composers who have explicitly advocated a more direct, dry experience (L. Bernstein, S. Prokofiev and C.Orff are often names as examples), while others called for a more diffuse sound of the orchestra (C. Debussy and R. Wagner come to mind).

All this will also lead to aesthetic goals differing from mixing engineer to mixing engineer. Rightly so.

 

[livinon2wheels]

As I recall Tekton's threat was over Amir's measurements. I don't recall him threatening to sue Amir for his opinions. Just FYI.

understood, thanks for clarifying...hard to find fault with legitimate honest measurements. It colors the whole thing in an even more negative light.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Absolutely not my experience! At a symphony performance I prefer to sit a number of rows back so as to be able to enjoy the "hall sound" along with the direct sound from the instruments.

My experience is different yet. When I am playing with the orchestra, (trombone), I hear the clarinets in front of me occasionally, but mostly the freaking trumpets sitting behind me almost to the exclusion of anything else, including the other trombones. Seldom do I get a balanced orchestral listening experience. The best way for me is at home via a good recording.

 

[olieb]

My experience is different yet. When I am playing with the orchestra, (trombone), I hear the clarinets in front of me occasionally, but mostly the freaking trumpets sitting behind me almost to the exclusion of anything else, including the other trombones. Seldom do I get a balanced orchestral listening experience. The best way for me is at home via a good recording.

Yeah. Even though there is reverb from all directions, the sound is not balanced in the same way at every position in the hall, of course. The percussionists in the pic (Mahler 6th) do know that. Sitting in front of brass often is not so funny either.
Hearing health is a serious issue for musicians in an orchestra.

 

[Arindal]

When I am playing with the orchestra, (trombone), I hear the clarinets in front of me occasionally, but mostly the freaking trumpets sitting behind me almost to the exclusion of anything else, including the other trombones.

That is to be expected. Trombones and trumpets are the orchestra instruments with the highest directivity index due to their horn shape. If you have ever walked around a trumpeter or trombonist under free-field conditions on non-reflective ground (such as a meadow) while the instrument is played, you get an idea of the frequency-dependent directivity.

BTW i have been for a certain period of times sitting in the orchestra in front of the trombones. Don't blame them, you're the same, man! ;-) Acrylic glass shielding is your friend.

 

[Jack B]

My experience is different yet. When I am playing with the orchestra, (trombone), I hear the clarinets in front of me occasionally, but mostly the freaking trumpets sitting behind me almost to the exclusion of anything else, including the other trombones. Seldom do I get a balanced orchestral listening experience. The best way for me is at home via a good recording.

Yes, but listening from within the orchestra is a totally different experience from listening from the hall. Reminds me of the old argument, "Do you really want a symphony orchestra in your listening room?" Of course not. I want the acoustic experience in my ears/brain, of being in the hall, listening to the orchestra. Agreed, it is a totally different thing.

 

[livinon2wheels]

I love live music but at my age and with my mobility challenges, I wont be going to any live performances anymore. That is off the table. What I can do though is appreciate good recordings and savor that experience. And most days I do.

 

[livinon2wheels]

Yeah. Even though there is reverb from all directions, the sound is not balanced in the same way at every position in the hall, of course. The percussionists in the pic (Mahler 6th) do know that. Sitting in front of brass often is not so funny either.
Hearing health is a serious issue for musicians in an orchestra.
View attachment 483234

I love this photo, how totally funny it is to see the guy with the huge wooden hammer.....lmao.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

The blows of fate are something I’ve never heard done well. Live they always have been far too muted. So nice to see an attempt to get them right. Not to mention the silly question of exactly how many blows are made.

Orchestra musicians have a wretched time dependent on the piece and what they play. The skill set needed to be able to create a unified whole whist sitting in one corner of the orchestra unable to hear the results and well outside the precedence effect distance to most of their colleagues is not trivial.

 

[Francis Vaughan]

The whole question of the acoustics of live orchestral music is deserving of its own thread. But absent that, I think this article from Acoustics Today, from The Acoustical Society of America makes fascinating reading. It covers the history and most recent redevelopment of the David Geffen Hall. High points are the evolution of understanding of what makes a space good, and the question of what makes a space good for performers- something that seems to be at best an afterthought in many venues.

David Geffen Hall and the Evolution of Acoustics at Lincoln Center - Paul H. Scarbrough

acousticstoday.org

 

[Jflijohn]

I saw John Batiste at the DR Koncerthusen in Copenhagen in June. The conditions were perfect, great acoustics, 1 instrument (his piano) and 1 voice. Once you’ve heard music in this way, it’s hard to listen to anything else.
…conversely, when I got home, I worked the My Chemical Romance concert at Oracle Park (I’m an usher for the Giants), this was the polar opposite of John Batiste and, unfortunately, this seems to be the most common conditions, even small venues seem to be going for loud echoey rooms.
I don’t believe this has changed much, I’m 64 and spent a lot of time in the ‘80s at bad venues. Not until I got to this advanced age and could afford good sound at home did I realize how it’s supposed to sound but, even with my high end setup at home, my acoustics are by far, the weak link and not something that I can really correct.
Unfortunately, bad venue acoustics keep me at home more than I would like.
We saw Robert Cray last night at Yoshi’s in Oakland, a very small venue, Robert Cray understands that less (volume) is more…

 

[Jflijohn]

Yeah. Even though there is reverb from all directions, the sound is not balanced in the same way at every position in the hall, of course. The percussionists in the pic (Mahler 6th) do know that. Sitting in front of brass often is not so funny either.
Hearing health is a serious issue for musicians in an orchestra.
View attachment 483234

…talk about hearing loss, we sat right next to these guys at a basketball game, their only goal was to play as loud as humanly possible, it was excruciating, I don’t know how any of them will be able to hear anything when they get to be my age.