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A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

Some need the "punch", some can do without. The latter will often be happy with headphones.
I myself am sort of in between. For me, it has its value with some music, but may be quickly tiring with other.
 
Rick "going to shoot shotguns tomorrow but will be double-plugged" Denney

“ tell me you’re an American without telling me you’re an American.” ;)
 
Our acoustically-small home listening rooms create indirect energy that is perceived as largely negative
The main exception that I am aware of is the importance of first reflection from the nearest side wall as an aid to the limitations of stereo playback. Other than that, like I said, he describes significant issues with the type of reflections and modes present in small rooms.
Seems a strange interpretation of Toole's findings. Perhaps this article will help clarify his position.

Is it the direction, or is it the delay, that really sells the effect? I'm asking because I don't know.
As far as I can tell from the research, it's both. Early medial reflections don't contribute much in terms of spatial effect (except distance perception, I think), while early lateral reflections do. Around ±60° seems to be the "sweet spot" for source broadening and such.
Late reflections should roughly approximate a diffuse field. This can't be done very well with only two speakers in a small room.

I feel it my embouchure more than in my chest--I've actually had my buzz canceled by an out-of-tune tymp
That's interesting—the sound pressure from the timpani must have been significantly modulating the acoustic loading provided by your instrument.

I've never felt an orchestral performance "in my chest"
Not quite the "sledgehammer" bass impact some seek, but I definitely felt the huge bass drum hits during a performance of Verdi's Messa da Requiem that I attended.
 
That article notwithstanding, the pressure I feel sitting a foot or two in front of a tympanum or concert bass drum is in my ears and head, if I'm just sitting there. If I am playing the tuba, however, I feel it my embouchure more than in my chest--I've actually had my buzz canceled by an out-of-tune tymp, which is not nearly uncommon enough in the groups in which I play.

Do I want a playback system to sound like a drum from two feet away. Absolutely not. Even if I'm playing along.

I've never felt an orchestral performance "in my chest" and if I was aware of that sensation I probably would not like it. That is not the same thing, to me, as feeling the concussive impact of low frequencies, such as (real) thunder.

Rick "going to shoot shotguns tomorrow but will be double-plugged" Denney
You don't need the performer's experience for this, that's another thing, not entirely desirable.
What you need is some good,old, broad 15" woofer jbl's and Rory Gallagher with his band through them.
All time classic test.
 
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That's interesting—the sound pressure from the timpani must have been significantly modulating the acoustic loading provided by your instrument.


Not quite the "sledgehammer" bass impact some seek, but I definitely felt the huge bass drum hits during a performance of Verdi's Messa da Requiem that I attended.
Modulating? I think of that as applying one frequency on the a much lower frequency that acts as a carrier. I think in this case it was two frequencies very close together, beating against one another, with enough concussive intensity to cancel the pulses from the other altogether. A drum sounds like a drum because of the wide range of harmonic content, much of which is enharmonic comprehensively enough to make a "boom" rather than a tone. Tympani are tuned, however, so there is a fundamental frequency in there, unlike with, say, a concert bass drum.

The real cure (in the absence of a tympanist with good intonation) is distance. I doesn't take much. I do. not. like. being positioned right in front of the tympani on a crowded stage--I've been so close that if I leaned my head back, I'd stab my occiput on one of the tuning handles.

The loudest tympani I've heard from the audience was in the tympani solo in the Shostakovich 5th Symphony, performed by the Texas All-State Orchestra (comprising the best of the best high-school musicians in the state), and they simply let the young man who was playing the tympani go to town. No pro would have been as aggressive, but I have to say that it was thrilling. It did not, however, slam my chest. (Occasionally, the All-State Orchestra would shame the All-State Band, and this was one of those occasions. Do not underestimate the power of that group. It's about twice the size of a standard professional orchestra and every member, if they go into music, likely to be at the head of their collegiate music programs. The pool of talent is vast and Texas schools take their music programs much more seriously than in many other states.

And then there was the occasion when, in the Austin Symphonic Band, we could not persuade the bass drummer to play loudly enough for the opening of the Holst Suite in Eb third movement. We had a horn player in that group who was the bass drummer for the greatly oversized bass drum used by the alumni group of the Longhorn Band (of the University of Texas at Austin). The director asked him to demonstrate the desired effect. I was immediately downstream of the bass drum--it was just to my right--and the horn player smacked it so loudly that people cried out in startlement. It startled me, for sure, and it stopped both me and the band cold to eruptions of general laughter. But I don't recall any chest slam.

Professionals are usually a bit more controlled :) Excluding rock music, of course. One of my test tracks is the opening track of ELP's Trilogy, with an enormously loud bass drum foot-roll by Carl Palmer. I use that to test the integrity of the foam surrounds on my Advent woofers.

Rick "the horn player had to buy beer that night" Denney
 
Modulating?
Yes, sound is picked up at the bell and transmitted to the mouthpiece with considerable pressure gain around frequencies corresponding to the resonances of the instrument. Varying (modulating) the pressure at the mouthpiece modulates the acoustic impedance (loading) seen by the player's embouchure.

While looking for an article to post here about acoustic impedance in the context of wind instruments (here's one), I happened across one discussing this very effect (French horn rather than tuba, however).

I don't recall any chest slam.
Perhaps different definitions or just me remembering the exact sensation incorrectly (it was a while ago now). There was certainly a notable tactile component.
 
Why do we need additional reflections when listening if everything should be in the recording?

My recollection (from the first edition of Floyd Toole's book) is that an experiment was conducted wherein a reflection was generated at different angles under otherwise anechoic conditions, and the worst angle from the standpoint of sound quality was when the reflection came from the same direction as the direct sound; in other words, when the reflection came from the speaker that generated the direct sound.

So I think there is worthwhile benefit in having in-room reflections which arrive from many different directions.

And, anecdotally, I'm under the impression that anechoic chambers are considered to be not particularly enjoyable for music playback. Somebody please correct me if I'm mistaken.

Is it the direction, or is it the delay, that really sells the effect?

I have experimented with bi-directional speakers optimized to have reflections arriving from the theoretically optimum angles (sixty degrees to the left and right of the centerline, this based on my understanding of the findings presented in @Floyd Toole's book), and with bi-directional speakers optimized for delay (using a longer reflection path length but with the reflections arriving from non-optimum directions).

In my opinion, and in the unanimous opinions of my beta-testers, optimizing for sufficient delay was better, both in sound quality and in spatial quality.

But the spatial quality of the two approaches was significantly different, and some people might well prefer the spatial quality of the system optimized for reflection arrival direction.
 
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Yes, sound is picked up at the bell and transmitted to the mouthpiece with considerable pressure gain around frequencies corresponding to the resonances of the instrument. Varying (modulating) the pressure at the mouthpiece modulates the acoustic impedance (loading) seen by the player's embouchure.

While looking for an article to post here about acoustic impedance in the context of wind instruments (here's one), I happened across one discussing this very effect (French horn rather than tuba, however).


Perhaps different definitions or just me remembering the exact sensation incorrectly (it was a while ago now). There was certainly a notable tactile component.
Oh, I knew what you meant, and I'm not only well-read in the popular books by Arthur Benade, but also in the serious textbook by Fletcher and Rossing.


And there is no question that the bell acts as an impedance-matching device, which filters the emerging sound pressure pulses of many of the enharmonic overtones of the raw buzz. Thinking of the bell as an impedance matching device would really help musicians understand what's happening, if most musicians could understand what the heck impedance is :) Fletcher also talked about how the air density and therefore the speed of sound changes during play in conical-bore instruments like tubas, confounding the usual calculations of resonance. But instrument-makers that don't get that wrap up those errors in "bell effect", which for them is a general fixit parameter, not something they can quantify.

I wasn't visualizing a modulation as much as aliasing from the beats of two close frequencies that are not, however, too close. I suspect it's just a matter of terminology. Tactile, yes, but not in the chest so much as in the lips.

Rick "the mouthpiece is also an impedance-matching device" Denney
 
In my opinion, and in the unanimous opinions of my beta-testers, optimizing for sufficient delay was better, both in sound quality and in spatial quality.
Do you recall what the delays were and what the "non-optimum" angle was?
 
The loudest tympani I've heard from the audience was in the tympani solo in the Shostakovich 5th Symphony, performed by the Texas All-State Orchestra (comprising the best of the best high-school musicians in the state), and they simply let the young man who was playing the tympani go to town.

I just looked for it on Tidal and I couldn't find it. Do you know where I might be able to hear that recording?
 
Do you recall what the delays were and what the "non-optimum" angle was?

The delays were at least ten milliseconds relative to the direct sound, and the "non-optimum" arrival angle was from the front of the room, and moreso from above the speakers than from the same plane as the speakers. There were one or two wall-bounces in the reflection path so the arrival directions were kinda smeared.
 
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I just looked for it on Tidal and I couldn't find it. Do you know where I might be able to hear that recording?
I think it was a live event that Mr Denney attended, and it was not recorded for commercial distribution.

If I am not mistaken, some states in the US gathers their top high school music talents annually into music camps. At the end of these music camps, they may perform together in a concert. I think Mr Denney's experience was with one of those concerts, or something like that.
 
The delays were at least ten milliseconds relative to the direct sound, and the "non-optimum" arrival angle was from the front of the room, and moreso from above the speakers than from the same plane as the speakers.
Thanks. Very early reflections seem to be more likely to cause audible spectral coloration and/or distort/smear imaging (which I'm sure you already know).

My main speakers are fairly similar to Geddes' NA12 in their directivity characteristics and are toed in to cross in front of the listening position. The first ipsilateral reflections are greatly attenuated at high frequencies since they are emitted >90° from the axis. The first contralateral reflections, on the other hand, are emitted ~20° from the axis and arrive at about ±70° with ~8.5ms relative delay. I don't seem to perceive these as being detrimental to timbre or imaging precision even though they are quite strong.
 
My main speakers are fairly similar to Geddes' NA12 in their directivity characteristics and are toed in to cross in front of the listening position. The first ipsilateral reflections are greatly attenuated at high frequencies since they are emitted >90° from the axis. The first contralateral reflections, on the other hand, are emitted ~20° from the axis and arrive at about ±70° with ~8.5ms relative delay. I don't seem to perceive these as being detrimental to timbre or imaging precision even though they are quite strong.

Pardon my curiosity, but what speakers do you have?

Geddes on why those first contralateral reflections are not detrimental (this is probably old news to you, but it may be new news for some):

"A reflected signal that arrives at the opposite ear from the direct sound is less perceptible as coloration and image shift than if both signals arrive at the same ear. This is because of head shadowing above about 500 Hz and the fact that our ears can process signals between them. When the two signals arrive at the same ear, the signals are physically merged in space even before they enter the ear and no amount of auditory processing can separate them. When these signals arrive at different ears, the auditory processing system can diminish the adverse effects of these early reflections through cognitive processing between the ears."
 
It all depends on the size of the room, the distance of the speakers from the walls, and their dispersion quality. However, the tracing in the figure plus the four reflections—two from above and two from the floor—should be treated with absorption/diffusion depending on the distance, otherwise the image will shift and lose focus.
 

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I'm under the impression that anechoic chambers are considered to be not particularly enjoyable for music playback. Somebody please correct me if I'm mistaken.

From own experience, conducting quite a number of experiments inside an anechoic chamber, I would say your impression is accurate when we are talking about listening to music recordings in stereo without meaningful reverb. Meaningful in the sense that it is telling our brain something about room properties, tonal directivity of the instruments, depth-of-field and alike. The highlighted proximity is really annoying, like a row of mono horns yelling at you.

The picture changes, though, with acoustic recordings containing a meaningful reverb pattern of the concert venue. Would say you stop feeling like being in an anechoic chamber, except for the missing envelopment and ambience. The frontal stereo image can be very good, even showing decent depth-of-field.

In general I would say close-to-anechoic conditions are not a reasonable goal when listening to stereo. I am aware that some 30 or 40 years ago some people were having the opposite opinion, coming up with overdamped, very dry listening rooms.

optimizing for sufficient delay was better, both in sound quality and in spatial quality.

Can fully confirm this from own experiments. We should note, that adding discrete reflections coming in from a particular angle, is never a good idea, is you want to reproduce anything that's resembling the reverb on the recording. Delay is much better, although it might add a feeling of distance and reduced proximity to phantom sources, if reflections are too strong. That's typical for dipoles, if the wall behind the speakers is adding too much of a discrete reflection pattern. To counter this, one should reduce the listening distance, which is oftentimes not possible or kind of counterintuitive when listening to narrow radiation speakers. That was impression particularly with fullrange dipoles like Linkwitz 521, employing a rear-firing tweeter.

The delays were at least ten milliseconds relative to the direct sound, and the "non-optimum" arrival angle was from the front of the room, and moreso from above the speakers than from the same plane as the speakers. There were one or two wall-bounces in the reflection path so the arrival directions were kinda smeared.

Sounds like a good concept, but maybe discrete reflections still dominate the reverb pattern even if they bounce two- or threefold. Very much depends on the absorption pattern of wall and ceiling. What I found to be a good idea is combining rear-firing and lots of diffusion. It might even reduce the necessity for additional delay.

My personal method of double-checking this, is extensively listening to à capella tracks with several voices, alternating overly dry ones (like Barbershop style) with overly reverberant mixes (sacred choir music or alike). You get a pretty quick feeling for one of the mix styles being off the charts, either the close-mic´d, dry ones too close and annoying, or (which is often the case) the classical ones too distance, giving this ´I-am-sitting-in-the-last-row-of-the-cathedral´-feeling. If that makes sense, it is just my method.
 
It all depends on the size of the room, the distance of the speakers from the walls, and their dispersion quality. However, the tracing in the figure plus the four reflections—two from above and two from the floor—should be treated with absorption/diffusion depending on the distance, otherwise the image will shift and lose focus.
I just happened to see your illustration and I recognize it as one that I created. It is derived from Figure 6.6 in the 1st and 2nd editions and Figure 7.25 in the 3rd. All my notations were in English. Where did your version come from, and did they credit me as the source? Just curious. I attach my version, and you will see that even the first room reflections are around the threshold of detection for image shift. So, don't get concerned about "image shift and focus" caused by even later room reflections. Stereo images are already distorted by interaural crosstalk - they are what they are and they are primarily determined by the direct sound. Stereo itself is the problem. The 4th edition will explain in more detail - it will be published Oct.28.
 

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Not quite the "sledgehammer" bass impact some seek, but I definitely felt the huge bass drum hits during a performance of Verdi's Messa da Requiem that I attended.
Yup. Some time back, we bought late tix for the Verdi Messa da Requiem at Carnegie and had to settle for Row 2, just off center. When we took our seats and looked up, we saw that a huge bass drum was standing stage-front, less than 15 feet from us. Even though we anticipated what was to come, the reality of it was astonishing!!
 
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