A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

[Newman]

Individual uncontrolled experiences are little more than curiosities. The science is solid, controlled, and evidence-based. Stereo has significant and incurable failings, and MCH takes listener preference a clear and significant distance beyond stereo in the right direction.

 

[Arindal]

I have some 200 multichannel recordings that I and others prefer to the stereo versions of the same.

I have way north of 3,000 and came to absolutely the same conclusion.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I have never heard a well-implemented multichannel system before.

Unfortunate but unsurprising. Typically, sophisticated store demonstrations are stereo only (audio shops) or home theater (big box, CI vendors). It is hard for me to recall any high quality retail presentations of multichannel audio for music.

 

[rdenney]

... At a minimum, musical energy from the rear and sides is needed, with a delay, reverberation and decay that our too-small home listening spaces cannot deliver. So something else is indeed "needed for music": multichannel loudspeakers surrounding the listener, driven by discrete channel feeds that are not merely modified versions of front left and front right.
...

(emphasis added)

Is it the direction, or is it the delay, that really sells the effect? I'm asking because I don't know. I do know that I can make speakers close to a back-row audience member make the sound appear to come from the front of the room by adding the appropriate amount of delay to it. What seems to localize the speaker is that its reproduced sound gets to the listener before any direct or acoustically reflect sound.

It seems to me that one reason recordings (particularly of classical music) are made in good acoustic spaces is so that the spatial ambience is included in the recording. Even if that reverberation comes from two speakers in the front, the delay cues might be persuasive with even a semblance of stereo separation. It seems that way to me, but I'm a sample of one. I lose the effect altogether with mono recordings, however.

For rock music, I prefer the dry recordings of years past because they improve clarity. Live recordings of amplified music, even when taken from the sound board, seem to me to include too much second-generation amplification and room effect, and lots of added reverb often just smears the sound for me. They are always instantly identifiable for that reason. But I've been fooled by live classical recordings, where the only difference in the recording conditions may be the presence or lack of an audience. But some of the classical recordings that used a couple dozen microphones placed close to the instruments and then processed to hell and gone to integrate the tracks during editing can really undermine its persuasiveness to me.

If the direction is the necessary element, then only multichannel speakers can provide that realistically when playing large-room sounds back in a small room. I'm am sure that it help, but I'm just not sure it's the primary element, and it adds enormously to the integration challenge.

Rick "can record the effect of a large room and play it back in a small room" Denney

 

[mglobe]

(emphasis added)

…

It seems to me that one reason recordings (particularly of classical music) are made in good acoustic spaces is so that the spatial ambience is included in the recording. Even if that reverberation comes from two speakers in the front, the delay cues might be persuasive with even a semblance of stereo separation. It seems that way to me, but I'm a sample of one. I lose the effect altogether with mono recordings, however.

…

This. It’s true in jazz recordings as well, and in some live rock music. I’ll never know if it works for bagpipes though.

 

[Suono]

if it can be useful

 

[MattHooper]

When I was mentioning poor sound from outdoor concerts, I was thinking largely of the amplified concert I’ve attended.

Otherwise: I live in an area “ infested” with live music being played outside. There are constantly street performers of all stripe, from small jazz quartets to folk to even amplified rock. And live music - including unamplified big band music - often shows up in our local parks. Those tend to sound really good. And I often use them to tune my ear to the sound of live un-amplified voices and instruments - a good reminder of what those sound like in real life.

 

[Neadych]

At what sound pressure level from speakers does a person feel a blow to the chest?

 

[respice finem]

When I was mentioning poor sound from outdoor concerts, I was thinking largely of the amplified concert I’ve attended.

Otherwise: I live in an area “ infested” with live music being played outside. There are constantly street performers of all stripe, from small jazz quartets to folk to even amplified rock. And live music - including unamplified big band music - often shows up in our local parks. Those tend to sound really good. And I often use them to tune my ear to the sound of live un-amplified voices and instruments - a good reminder of what those sound like in real life.

I'm avoiding rock concerts since years to protect my hearing. I understand rock etc. is not expected not to be loud, but having to come with hearing protection is "perverse" IMHO...

 

[Mart68]

One Christmas they had a brass band playing inside the supermarket - glass curtain walls, hard surfaces everywhere. It was literally unbearable, I felt really sorry for the staff. I think horn instruments were originally designed for high SPL outside, where they not?

 

[Elkerton]

I have way north of 3,000 and came to absolutely the same conclusion.

3,000! I should be so lucky (or rich)!

 

[Purité Audio]

At what sound pressure level from speakers does a person feel a blow to the chest?

Chest cavity resonance varies I suspect but i have seen 80Hz quoted more than once.
Keith

 

[Neadych]

Chest cavity resonance varies I suspect but i have seen 80Hz quoted more than once.
Keith

What should the volume be?

 

[Sokel]

At what sound pressure level from speakers does a person feel a blow to the chest?

If you can have clean peaks at 110-115dB SPL (Z) and above at up to 250Hz, you're good to go.
(sounds like a lot but it's not for peaks)

 

[mglobe]

If you can have clean peaks at 110-115dB SPL (Z) and above at up to 250Hz, you're good to go.
(sounds like a lot but it's not for peaks)

At 110dB, I’d feel a whack upside my head from my wife.

 

[Sokel]

At 110dB, I’d feel a whack upside my head from my wife.

You won't, she might not even notice it depending the music.

If it's a sole set of drums banging, maybe, if it's a peak like in classical I very much doubt it. She would complain more if it was compressed and strident.

 

[olieb]

Chest cavity resonance

Do you really mean the cavity (lung) resonance? Or the resonance of the thorax/chest wall?
With a short search I found this (with a funny pic), which gives a value of 50-100Hz for the chest resonance.

Does the human body have a resonant frequency? If so, how strong is it?

Inspired by this question on Music beta SE, I'm wondering if the human body has a strong resonant frequency. I guess the fact that it's largely a bag of jelly would add a lot of damping to the syst...

physics.stackexchange.com

This study gives somewhat lower values (28..41Hz).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169260724000580

If you can have clean peaks at 110-115dB SPL (Z) and above at up to 250Hz, you're good to go.
(sounds like a lot but it's not for peaks)

110dbspl is what it is and if you turn up the volume to reach 0dbFS=110dbspl then this is VERY loud. Even with classical recordings (Shostakovich and such) I found that the average volume of loud passages is about 20dB below the peak level. And this is not taking into account that peaks typically have significant energy in higher frequency range that does not produce chest impact.
That would result in loud passages to have at least ≈90dBspl averaged over tens of seconds (sometimes longer). Not my cup of tea, I treasure my hearing.

 

[Sokel]

Do you really mean the cavity (lung) resonance? Or the resonance of the thorax/chest wall?
With a short search I found this (with a funny pic), which gives a value of 50-100Hz for the chest resonance.

Does the human body have a resonant frequency? If so, how strong is it?

Inspired by this question on Music beta SE, I'm wondering if the human body has a strong resonant frequency. I guess the fact that it's largely a bag of jelly would add a lot of damping to the syst...

physics.stackexchange.com

This study gives somewhat lower values (28..41Hz).

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0169260724000580

110dbspl is what it is and if you turn up the volume to reach 0dbFS=110dbspl then this is VERY loud. Even with classical recordings (Shostakovich and such) I found that the average volume of loud passages is about 20dB below the peak level. And this is not taking into account that peaks typically have significant energy in higher frequency range that does not produce chest impact.
That would result in loud passages to have at least ≈90dBspl averaged over tens of seconds (sometimes longer). Not my cup of tea, I treasure my hearing.

20dB down is at 90dB, yes.
But 90dB SPL, what? A,C?

Cause if we're talking about C (which makes more sense for music) 90dB SPL (C) for a bass heavy-ish work can be nothing.
Assuming that pink noise's combined spectrum at line level is divided equal-ish at about 250Hz voltage-wise means that the levels of the dangerous range can be 20-30dB down combined.

It goes without saying of course that we must take care of our hearing.


Same work, Amir's "Fading Sun" by Terje Isungset, actual playback at my LP:

A weighting

C weighting


(peaks are always (Z) )

 

[Sokel]

About chest punch, there's a test here:

Bass: the Physical Sensation of Sound

Ever wonder why you can feel bass? We take a look behind the science of bass waves and the tactile sensations that they cause. Our bass experiments were quite revealing but don't try them at home.

www.audioholics.com

And a piece of it:

 

[rdenney]

That article notwithstanding, the pressure I feel sitting a foot or two in front of a tympanum or concert bass drum is in my ears and head, if I'm just sitting there. If I am playing the tuba, however, I feel it my embouchure more than in my chest--I've actually had my buzz canceled by an out-of-tune tymp, which is not nearly uncommon enough in the groups in which I play.

Do I want a playback system to sound like a drum from two feet away. Absolutely not. Even if I'm playing along.

I've never felt an orchestral performance "in my chest" and if I was aware of that sensation I probably would not like it. That is not the same thing, to me, as feeling the concussive impact of low frequencies, such as (real) thunder.

Rick "going to shoot shotguns tomorrow but will be double-plugged" Denney