A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

[krabapple]

I'm grateful for the remaining ones but the 2016-2020 era where badges (metaphorically) were all over the place seem distant (I, as a layman wouldn't even dare to register)
I get that experts carry strong opinions and things get heated sometimes, but...

Having been here since 2016 -- I guess I dared to register? (not sure what you mean there) -- I don't recall this halcyon situation.

I have seen a couple of supposed 'experts' driven away back to their safe spaces, though.

 

[j_j]

INTRAchannel phase shift = phase distortion caused by minimum-phase systems. All minimum-phase systems rotate phase with amplitude. Read more about it here: Elliot Sound. This is what happens to a square wave after it has been subjected to an all-pass filter (distorts the phase response but leaves the amplitude response untouched):

Well, about 3 decades ago in this thread, there were two signals with exactly, precisely, absolutely the same power spectrum that sound different. I'd think this is a done deal, then, yes?

Does it apply to the normal level of phase shift in a system, that's unclear.

Does phase inversion of midranges in loudspeakers matter? That's unclear, but my personal experience suggests "yes". I do not, however, have the remit (or funds) to run a large test. I most certainly DO have the means and understanding to create two loudspeakers with extraordinarily similar amplitude response, one with 2nd order crossover, one with standard crossover, and one with pure-delay crossover, it's easy, you can do all 3 with the same hardware and multi-amped speakers.

If you have the space, the money, and the subjects, we can run a test.

 

[Salt]

Well, about 3 decades ago in this thread, there were two signals with exactly, precisely, absolutely the same power spectrum that sound different. I'd think this is a done deal, then, yes?

Does it apply to the normal level of phase shift in a system, that's unclear.

Does phase inversion of midranges in loudspeakers matter? That's unclear, but my personal experience suggests "yes". I do not, however, have the remit (or funds) to run a large test. I most certainly DO have the means and understanding to create two loudspeakers with extraordinarily similar amplitude response, one with 2nd order crossover, one with standard crossover, and one with pure-delay crossover, it's easy, you can do all 3 with the same hardware and multi-amped speakers.

If you have the space, the money, and the subjects, we can run a test.

What would be the minimum of prerequisites (no Klippel, no anechoic available)?

 

[j_j]

What would be the minimum of prerequisites (no Klippel, no anechoic available)?

Good (reasonably dry, very quiet) listening room, a ton of time, and subjects available.
Suitable speakers exist in my garage, they need an rPi and a 2-6 ADC/DAC and amplifiers.

The measurement isn't very hard. I have written that a dozen times, and it's pretty trivial!

 

[Salt]

Good (reasonably dry, very quiet) listening room, a ton of time, and subjects available.
Suitable speakers exist in my garage, they need an rPi and a 2-6 ADC/DAC and amplifiers.

The measurement isn't very hard. I have written that a dozen times, and it's pretty trivial!

My request was a serious offer, but "Suitable speakers exist in my garage" does not apply to what was intended, or ..?
Speaking about what is in your garage and if it could be mirrored what is my 'garage' (basement) , could be, or not, just as You like, a contribution, or not.

 

[j_j]

My request was a serious offer, but "Suitable speakers exist in my garage" does not apply to what was intended, or ..?
Speaking about what is in your garage and if it could be mirrored what is my 'garage' (basement) , could be, or not, just as You like, a contribution, or not.

I have a start on the hardware. Making the different crossovers (2nd order , lr, constant delay) is trivial. The listening room, subjects, and time are the issues.

 

[Albrecht47]

Does phase inversion of midranges in loudspeakers matter? That's unclear, but my personal experience suggests "yes".

@j_j
Can you please provide us with a little more detail about your personal experience?

for example,
the test environment, in a typical listening room?
test conditions, double blind screen, ABX?
with music or test signals?
mono or stereo?
directivity characteristics of the speaker
are you confirming audibility of only a difference or a preference for the non-inverted speaker?
how would you characterize the difference?

 

[j_j]

@j_j
Can you please provide us with a little more detail about your personal experience?

for example,
the test environment, in a typical listening room?
test conditions, double blind screen, ABX?
with music or test signals?
mono or stereo?
directivity characteristics of the speaker
are you confirming audibility of only a difference or a preference for the non-inverted speaker?
how would you characterize the difference?

In a custom-designed listening room at a state of the art facility. Yes to DBT, although not ABX, rather ABC/hr (BS1116 compliant except for a bit of excess background noise).

The reason I say "probably" is because high-level analog crossovers also have channel to channel matching issues, and I had no way of disambiguating that from the constant-delay digital crossover. Stereo, obvious, since one of the issues as imaging, in particular, lack of imaging shift hence my concerns with the analog crossover matching being a confounding problem, but also distance sensation and a sense I can't really describe on low-frequency percussion.

This, of course, being a different issue than "can we hear intrachannel (mono) phase shift" which for the right signal is "yes, yes, it's bloody obvious". How that applies to the real world is less obvious.

 

[Salt]

In a custom-designed listening room at a state of the art facility. Yes to DBT, although not ABX, rather ABC/hr (BS1116 compliant except for a bit of excess background noise).

The reason I say "probably" is because high-level analog crossovers also have channel to channel matching issues, and I had no way of disambiguating that from the constant-delay digital crossover. Stereo, obvious, since one of the issues as imaging, in particular, lack of imaging shift hence my concerns with the analog crossover matching being a confounding problem, but also distance sensation and a sense I can't really describe on low-frequency percussion.

This, of course, being a different issue than "can we hear intrachannel (mono) phase shift" which for the right signal is "yes, yes, it's bloody obvious". How that applies to the real world is less obvious.

Why 'high level analog crossovers' when switching between different topologies is eased by DSP?

Or is it a proof of concept for analog crossovers?

 

[j_j]

Why 'high level analog crossovers' when switching between different topologies is eased by DSP?

Or is it a proof of concept for analog crossovers?

Because that was the test? Hello?

 

[Salt]

Because that was the test? Hello?

So You did the tests via DSP already? and do intend to transfer it to analog crossovers?
I'm a little confused about Your Test setup, if You might elaborate a bit more?

 

[j_j]

So You did the tests via DSP already? and do intend to transfer it to analog crossovers?
I'm a little confused about Your Test setup, if You might elaborate a bit more?

Stacked speakers. Switched inputs. Yes, it's tricky. Hence why I do not say 'absolutely'.

 

[617]

Friday night guys. Seriously.

 

[olieb]

I know this is supposed to be a broad discussion, but the last time I checke the thread title said something about speakers.
Maybe we can get back to that? I would really appreciate it.

 

[Sokel]

Talking about stereo playback, the instrument I always find challenging (image wise, when talking about rock-solid image) is the Great Highland bagpipe when played at its whole range.
I have been in front of systems (room+speakers that is) that image literally jumps around depending the modulated nature of its sound or fine level variations.
Chasing the image is NO fun.

 

[boxerfan88]

Talking about stereo playback, the instrument I always find challenging (image wise, when talking about rock-solid image) is the Great Highland bagpipe when played at its whole range.
I have been in front of systems (room+speakers that is) that image literally jumps around depending the modulated nature of its sound or fine level variations.
Chasing the image is NO fun.

Got a Tidal link (or track name /artist name) to a sample track for me to check out?

 

[Sokel]

Got a Tidal link (or track name /artist name) to a sample track for me to check out?

No Tidal or an example now, I'll have to check.
But pick a random one and you'll know what I'm talking about, preferably along with this big Scottish drum.

(I asked some people to play me something sad at such a configuration once and there was not one dry eye after, it's shivering if someone knows how to do it)

 

[RickS]

First pass at off topic discussion of phase has been moved here:

'Does Phase Distortion/Shift Matter in Audio? (no*)'

Jun 7, 2021

A viewer of my videos and member he suggested that I do a video commenting on a video that Paul McGown did on audibility of phase shifts. Here is Paul's video which was really about a different question (why we need wideband amplifiers) but turned it into phase being an audible problem:

Here is my answer to him:

Of course phase is an important electrical and acoustic thing and has relevance in countless situations. It is just that it should not be used to create myths and fear in audiophiles with respect to audibility in the context Paul and others...

• amirm

• 

Please try to stay on topic. Thanks!

 

[Frank Dernie]

the instrument I always find challenging (image wise, when talking about rock-solid image) is the Great Highland bagpipe when played at its whole range.

I love the pipes but almost only listen to them live.
OTOH my favourite joke is:-
A gentleman is somebody who can play bagpipes but doesn't.

 

[mglobe]

I love the pipes but almost only listen to them live.
OTOH my favourite joke is:-
A gentleman is somebody who can play bagpipes but doesn't.

You win the internet for the month with that!