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A Broad Discussion of Speakers with Major Audio Luminaries

I guess that’s the answer to my question. Because A comparison needs to happen in the room the speakers will go in — a consumer should make a comparison before a final selection. This, because bass accounts for the 30% of the overall impression of the speaker and is room dependent. My hypothetical included an unrealistic parameter, the 3 models to be compared will very unlikely have similar bass response, and this is a key reason to do comparison, it’s all about the bass (or at least 30% or more). That’s my big take away.
"On the other hand", as they say in the classics, Dr Toole was pointing out that "the bass always needs attention". Perhaps this opens up an opportunity for valid off-site auditioning with the help of bass EQ.

If one is modern enough as an audiophile to be using a common room correction algorithm below (pick a number) say 350 Hz, one could ask the dealer to set up the speakers for demonstration with the same room correction settings as one is using at home. To a (fairly good?) degree this nullifies the room issue and allows auditioning away from home.

Thoughts?
 
Maybe not always?
View attachment 456762
This is my friend's beautiful listening room where dimensions and lot of bass absorption created "bass black hole".
View attachment 456764

Pushing the loudspeakers to the corners helps, but then wonderful 3d soundstage collapses...
Bass absorption wouldn’t create that cancellation.
Keith
 
if somebody had fully adapted to the sound profile of their B&W speaker with their pronounced more vivid upper frequencies, a Revel or other neutral loudspeaker may strike them as “ too boring.”

We should note, that the ´pronounced treble´ is not inherent to all B&W speakers. There are some models which would be rather described as ´dull´ or downwards-tilted, and some older ones which exactly meet the description ´linear on axis, but boring´. They seemingly changed their philosophy several times over the course of the last decades.

The other interesting claim, which is relevant to the question of mono vs. stereo listening tests, is the idea that neutral loudspeakers would be regularly described as ´too boring´ by some (many?) audiophiles, hinting that they prefer a somehow colorated response over linear.

I found no reason to back up this claim. In contrary, whenever I was able to test a loudspeaker, or asked several trained listeners for their opinion, being described as ´boring´ while showing flawless on-axis response, I found some other explanation for this phenomenon. And it was associated with other descriptions such as ´diffuse, incoherent phantom source localization, veiling details, distant imaging, midrange-laden reverb, lacking brilliance, lacking dynamics, slow bass´. Except from the bass, I would conclude that the other aspects are typically not detected or to a lesser degree in mono-testing setup, as they are all linked to either the reverb in the listening room or the stereo imaging when playing a more complex recording.

I’ve seen the occasional report from an audiophile who even bought Revel speakers and ended up selling them for more coloured speakers.

I would not overestimate the relevance of such anecdotal reports, but nevertheless it would be interesting to know from which speakers someone has switched to which other models, and why. Maybe there is an explanation which is not referring to this ´he liked more colored speakers´ cliché, which I personally think is wrong. I would fully back up the research results by Dr. Toole, saying that the vast majority of people prefers linear speakers, would even expand this idea to liking linear speakers off-axis and more or less linear indirect sound field in the room.
 
"a lot of bass absorption" Where is any bass absorption in that room?
There is perforated drywall ceiling with 20cm deep back cavity filled with glasswool. Front and back wall are double walls with absorbers/diffusers - if you look closer there are also 2x 18 inch subwoofers in the front wall (Acoustic Elegance drivers & Ncore plate amps). Additionally the whole listening room is "room in the room" type with concrete floor floating on the sylomer dampers.
Rt60~0,3
 
Maybe not always?
View attachment 456762
This is my friend's beautiful listening room where dimensions and lot of bass absorption created "bass black hole".
View attachment 456764

Pushing the loudspeakers to the corners helps, but then wonderful 3d soundstage collapses...
Multiple subwoofers (some in the back of the room) would likely solve the bass problem . A pretty room. Mid/high-frequency diffusers on wall behind speakers do little because only LF are radiated in that direction - thick absorption would likely be better (and cheaper), but not as visually appealing.
 
Nonsense. There are about one billion people who every day listen music through mono FM radio, or mono Bluetooth/internet streaming devices. An they are enjoying it!
Right now I am enjoying stereo in the background, but the system is playing in another room. The music survives very well without a soundstage - somehow my mind fills in some of the blanks. However, the neutral timbre of the loudspeakers is still appreciated :)
 
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Multiple subwoofers (some in the back of the room) would likely solve the bass problem . A pretty room. Mid/high-frequency diffusers on wall behind speakers do little because only LF are radiated in that direction - thick absorption would likely be better (and cheaper), but not as visually appealing.
Actually, thick absorber was the option I prefered, but the owner prefered the sound with the diffuser. Subwoofers on the backwall will be added soon.
 
Maybe not always?
View attachment 456762
This is my friend's beautiful listening room where dimensions and lot of bass absorption created "bass black hole".
View attachment 456764

Pushing the loudspeakers to the corners helps, but then wonderful 3d soundstage collapses...

Lovely looking room! A few notes:

1. I'm not sure why you replied "Maybe not always?" to @Floyd Toole 's comment that in small listening rooms bass "will always need attention." Even if your friend's room has a lot of bass absorption, that is evidence of exactly what Floyd Toole is saying: small rooms - in other words most home listening spaces - need bass treatment (or bass management via subs and/or main speaker positioning and/or EQ). The fact that your friend's treatments have not remedied all the bass issues simply means that his bass management is incorrect or insufficient. It doesn't mean bass management is unnecessary.

2. The frequency dip you show in the measurements appears to be centered around 35Hz and extends from about 25-50Hz in total. Those frequencies are to my understanding too low to be able to be absorbed with even thick panels - their wavelengths are so long that your friend would probably need to double up (or more) those thick wall panels to start seeing any improvement at such a low frequency.

3. Following on item 2, I think it's no coincidence that your friend can reduce that bass null by moving the speakers into the corners of the room. I've experimented with this a lot in my room, and I have found that moving speakers forward and back, and making all kinds of adjustments with thick absorbers, has virtually no impact on bass nulls. By contrast, moving the speakers side to side - closer to or farther from the side walls - has an obvious and immediate impact on measured bass dips, which correlates very neatly with what one would expect to see based on how lower frequencies have longer wavelengths. It's become my view that in home listening spaces, boundary interference from the side walls is the most common source of the bass issues most of us encounter.

In my experience, one has three basic options for dealing with bass nulls in a typical home listening space:
  • See if you can move the speakers close enough to the sidewalls to lift the null frequency out of the bass region without messing up the soundstage - this is unlikely, as your friend has found out.
  • Add one or two subwoofers to enable you to position the bass drivers independently of the main speakers.
  • If the bass null is very narrow in range (and its amplitude is moderate), just live with it. I know this sounds wrong, and maybe it is. But I have a room dip around 100Hz that's moderate in scale, extremely narrow in bandwidth, and could only be truly eliminated with a sub or unacceptably wide speaker placement. Yet during day to day music listening, and even when running a standard 20Hz-20kHz sweep, I simply don't hear it. Kick drums sound impactful, bass notes are clearly delineated, and if there's music in my collection where an instrument is hitting a note at exactly 107Hz or thereabouts that I'm missing out on because of the dip, I haven't noticed it yet. I'm guessing/assuming if I ran a special, slow, limited bandwidth sweep that very gradually went up and down between tones in the 80-150Hz range, I could hear the impact of the dip - but who cares? I'm not aware of any music that does that sort of thing.
To be clear, I do see that your friend's dip appears to be a fair amount wider in bandwidth than mine, but on the other hand it's also below the key 50Hz fundamental frequency of a kick drum. So depending on what he's listening to, I wouldn't automatically assume that this null is causing major audible issues, unless your friend is clearly experiencing a perceived lack of bass in that range.
 
Lovely looking room! A few notes:

1. I'm not sure why you replied "Maybe not always?" to @Floyd Toole 's comment that in small listening rooms bass "will always need attention." Even if your friend's room has a lot of bass absorption, that is evidence of exactly what Floyd Toole is saying: small rooms - in other words most home listening spaces - need bass treatment (or bass management via subs and/or main speaker positioning and/or EQ). The fact that your friend's treatments have not remedied all the bass issues simply means that his bass management is incorrect or insufficient. It doesn't mean bass management is unnecessary.

2. The frequency dip you show in the measurements appears to be centered around 35Hz and extends from about 25-50Hz in total. Those frequencies are to my understanding too low to be able to be absorbed with even thick panels - their wavelengths are so long that your friend would probably need to double up (or more) those thick wall panels to start seeing any improvement at such a low frequency.

3. Following on item 2, I think it's no coincidence that your friend can reduce that bass null by moving the speakers into the corners of the room. I've experimented with this a lot in my room, and I have found that moving speakers forward and back, and making all kinds of adjustments with thick absorbers, has virtually no impact on bass nulls. By contrast, moving the speakers side to side - closer to or farther from the side walls - has an obvious and immediate impact on measured bass dips, which correlates very neatly with what one would expect to see based on how lower frequencies have longer wavelengths. It's become my view that in home listening spaces, boundary interference from the side walls is the most common source of the bass issues most of us encounter.

In my experience, one has three basic options for dealing with bass nulls in a typical home listening space:
  • See if you can move the speakers close enough to the sidewalls to lift the null frequency out of the bass region without messing up the soundstage - this is unlikely, as your friend has found out.
  • Add one or two subwoofers to enable you to position the bass drivers independently of the main speakers.
  • If the bass null is very narrow in range (and its amplitude is moderate), just live with it. I know this sounds wrong, and maybe it is. But I have a room dip around 100Hz that's moderate in scale, extremely narrow in bandwidth, and could only be truly eliminated with a sub or unacceptably wide speaker placement. Yet during day to day music listening, and even when running a standard 20Hz-20kHz sweep, I simply don't hear it. Kick drums sound impactful, bass notes are clearly delineated, and if there's music in my collection where an instrument is hitting a note at exactly 107Hz or thereabouts that I'm missing out on because of the dip, I haven't noticed it yet. I'm guessing/assuming if I ran a special, slow, limited bandwidth sweep that very gradually went up and down between tones in the 80-150Hz range, I could hear the impact of the dip - but who cares? I'm not aware of any music that does that sort of thing.
To be clear, I do see that your friend's dip appears to be a fair amount wider in bandwidth than mine, but on the other hand it's also below the key 50Hz fundamental frequency of a kick drum. So depending on what he's listening to, I wouldn't automatically assume that this null is causing major audible issues, unless your friend is clearly experiencing a perceived lack of bass in that range.
ad 1) I read "attenuation" instead of attention... :D - my apology to @Floyd Toole
ad 2) sometimes ceiling absorption can do wonders. Here is REW Room Sim (my room) with ceiling absorption (orange) and without (blue). This was unfortunately confirmed in practice.
ad 3) as @Floyd Toole already suggested - subwoofers at the back wall are most effective solution

soba.png
 
ad 1) I read "attenuation" instead of attention... :D - my apology to @Floyd Toole
ad 2) sometimes ceiling absorption can do wonders. Here is REW Room Sim (my room) with ceiling absorption (orange) and without (blue). This was unfortunately confirmed in practice.
ad 3) as @Floyd Toole already suggested - subwoofers at the back wall are most effective solution

View attachment 456897

Attenuation-attention - ah, I see, that explains it! :)

Ceiling absorption - I am with you on that. I am a big believer in it - I have 2x 2x4 foot, 6 inch thick panels on my ceiling (each hung a couple of inches down from the ceiling to increase absorption via the air gap). As per the measurements you've shown, though, I'm a lot more confident in my ceiling panels' benefits for reducing the "liveness" of the space than I am in their effects on bass linearity.

As for subwoofers, yes, I certainly agree that they are usually the ideal solution since they allow you to position the bass drivers separately from the main speakers - essentially they allow you to set up independent driver positions for the lower, more omnidirectional frequencies to maximize bass linearity, and the higher, directional frequencies to optimize soundstage imaging.
 
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Ceiling absorption - I am with you on that. I am a big believer in it - I have 2x 2x4 foot, 6 inch thick panels on my ceiling (each hung a couple of inches down from the ceiling to increase absorption via the air gap). As per the measurements you've shown, though, I'm a lot more confident in my ceiling panels' benefits for reducing the "liveness" of the space than I am in their effects on bass linearity.

Same here.

As I’ve mentioned, I had an acoustician involved in the redesign of my room.
There is acoustic material strategically placed in ways that nobody can see them.
But one big factor is the ceiling bulkhead we built down, which is stretched fabric over a frame, behind which there are carefully placed large patches of acoustic materials.
Since this was all done at once, essentially it’s hard to pinpoint the individual contributions. But I would definitely say that the ceiling design has contributed a lot to the way of the room sounds. It sounds much more calm then before the redesign, even to the point of sometimes somewhat damped sounding. And yet the sound from either my surround system or my two channel system doesn’t sound over damp or dull at all. It can sound as lively as I want.

Also, intelligibility of dialogue for movies is absolutely amazing. I see people complaining all the time about not being able to hear dialogue in movies but I can play my system at really low levels (which I have to do sometimes when my hyperacusis is bothering me) and everybody hears all the dialogue easily.

So I can’t get too technical in terms of what is doing what in my room, but the results have been deeply satisfying.

Here’s a wide angle shot of the ceiling bulkhead I mentioned:

1749587742607.jpeg
 
In contrary, whenever I was able to test a loudspeaker, or asked several trained listeners for their opinion, being described as ´boring´ while showing flawless on-axis response, I found some other explanation for this phenomenon.
How did you ascertain they are "trained?" What training did they have and do they have an independent evaluation showing such?
 
Same here.

As I’ve mentioned, I had an acoustician involved in the redesign of my room.
There is acoustic material strategically placed in ways that nobody can see them.
But one big factor is the ceiling bulkhead we built down, which is stretched fabric over a frame, behind which there are carefully placed large patches of acoustic materials.
Since this was all done at once, essentially it’s hard to pinpoint the individual contributions. But I would definitely say that the ceiling design has contributed a lot to the way of the room sounds. It sounds much more calm then before the redesign, even to the point of sometimes somewhat damped sounding. And yet the sound from either my surround system or my two channel system doesn’t sound over damp or dull at all. It can sound as lively as I want.

Also, intelligibility of dialogue for movies is absolutely amazing. I see people complaining all the time about not being able to hear dialogue in movies but I can play my system at really low levels (which I have to do sometimes when my hyperacusis is bothering me) and everybody hears all the dialogue easily.

So I can’t get too technical in terms of what is doing what in my room, but the results have been deeply satisfying.

Here’s a wide angle shot of the ceiling bulkhead I mentioned:

View attachment 456914

Nice! And I know what you mean about a damped-sounding space vs damped (or non-damped) sounding music/dialogue/soundtracks and so on. The first time I had a conversation with someone while we were both seated at my listening room's main listening position, where the ceiling panels are intended to do most of their work, it was a very strange experience because our voices sounded so "dead" because the panels had so greatly reduced the room's natural reverb at that spot. I actually tried removing my ceiling panels once, to see if the perceived soundstage height would be affected. It was not - but the sonic result otherwise was inferior to when the panels were there, and the difference was not subtle. I immediately put them back up. :)
 
I would not overestimate the relevance of such anecdotal reports,

Neither would I.

but nevertheless it would be interesting to know from which speakers someone has switched to which other models, and why.

I was going on memory, and of course here we’re talking about people reporting their preferences under informal listening conditions. Obviously, nothing scientific, but then that’s the scenario we are talking about - people satisfaction in their real world listening situations.

But while I couldn’t find the specific posts I had in mind a very quick check yields someone who had Salon Studio 2s for a year, switched to Maggie 3.7s and “ would never go back.”

Another switched from PSB M2 Platinum stand mounted speakers to Revel M106
and felt regret, liking the PSB more despite that they clearly don’t measure as well.

Then we have somebody who showed up on this forum who, in comparing in his home, preferred the more colored Linn Karan speakers over Revel M106

As I’ve mentioned, when I did a mega speaker search to replace my big Thiels (too deep they partially blocked the room entrance) I listened to everything under the sun, which included several auditions of Revel speakers. I had at least one very good audition with the Revel Perform F228Be speakers. And they sounded just like the measurements predict: beautifully neutral, smoothly balanced and controlled from top to bottom, no obvious colouration, sounded smooth even off axis. They just screamed
“ competent speaker design!” (in fact, they were the speaker that more than any other reminded me my Thiels).

However, I found myself much more besotted with some maligned (on ASR) Devore speakers. It was very clear that compared to a speaker like the Revel the Devores were coloured. But they were coloured in a way that to my perception was incredibly engaging. One of my pet peeves about reproduced sound on most audiophile systems (of living room friendly scale) is that I find it very reductive sounding: whether we’re talking about acoustic instruments, voices, and sometimes even electric instruments, it’s all reduced in harmonic complexity and richness, and in size, heft and density. In real life instruments sound so much bigger in physical presence than they tend to through sound systems. (and that includes what I heard through the Revel and other neutral and non-neutral speakers).

In contrast, the Devores produced sounds with more scale, richness, heft, presence, that continually reminded me more of the real thing. The Revel was ultra refined “ standard” but the Devore was just a different animal sonically. I played the same drum solo track on every speaker I auditioned, eyes closed, and I’ve never sat in front of a speaker that produced the sensation of being in front of live drums to the same extent as the Devores. I’m not talking a huge difference from a speaker like Revels or my Thiels - but enough that I found it significant given what I listen for in reproduced sound .

And they kept me pinned to my seat excited to hear track after track in a way that the Revels did not. The colorations were just canny enough that they did not scream to me colouration, but rather a welcome enriched scale and body and physical presence. Singers tended to sound less disembodied, and more like heads attached to resonating bodies as one hears in real life. IMO.

So out of the two I would’ve bought the Devore. I can’t say if the honeymoon would’ve lasted over years or not, or whether their particular sound would wear on me. I was unsure enough about that to stick to something a bit more traditional when I replaced my Thiel speakers.

Again, that is of course all anecdotal experience. But at the moment, that’s what we are focussing on: what are the consequences for different measuring speakers in what we perceive in normal listening scenarios.

Cheers.
 
Amongst the worst speakers I have ever heard.
Keith

^^ This is why I am happy to not be swayed by such opinions.

I liked ‘em much better than the Kii’s you used to sell as well. Sorry. :) :p

(now I’m gonna go order some pineapple on pizza too…)
 
I also am not swayed by opinions but by measurement.
Keith
 
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