A $15k music streamer reviewed on stereophile

[voodooless]

If he is so wrong why bother. It's already obvious to everyone. Substantiation? WTF?

Because some people are reasonable and actually read what you write, think about the other viewpoints, and engage in a decent conversation.

 

[_thelaughingman]

Yeah. We should talk about something boring, like politics. [I would like to emphasize, this is sarcasm.]

I think we need to open a thread for our sarcastic comments that include statements and claims such as : $1k pure copper ofc power Chord attached to $8k amp = massive gains.

 

[Killingbeans]

How is it that a listening session is needed for some components and not others?

Because the coloration you get from transducers is massive compared to the dirt in good line level electronics. Large enough to be audible without a doubt (or little doubt at least).

 

[voodooless]

All I'm saying is that some of you seem to be awfully excitable.

What I get annoyed by is mostly the shit that these companies get away with! Taking boatloads of money away from people for totally unsubstantiated and unproven so called technological advancements. Kept on their thrones by fake reviews, expectation bias and cult following. I think this is borderline criminal! The amount of Stockholm Syndrome cases is truly staggering.

 

[ahofer]

Because the coloration you get from transducers is massive compared to the dirt in good line level electronics. Large enough to be audible without a doubt (or little doubt at least).

Yup. Up to the speaker terminals/headphone drivers, measurements tell you what you need to know.

 

[pseudoid]

speculative opinion

I am still scratching my head, ALLLLLL the way from page5, trying to figure out what that means.
Iz it sum lawyereze?

 

[Robin L]

I am still scratching my head, ALLLLLL the way from page5, trying to figure out what that means.
Iz it sum lawyereze?

Criswell Predicts?

 

[Somafunk]

jammer said:
speculative opinion

cool band, saw them in 1994 before they got signed

 

[MaxBuck]

As hard as it is to believe, I haven’t been called an asshole yet today, so thanks for that!

At least where I live, there's plenty of time for that to change. As I am finding out first hand.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

At least where I live, there's plenty of time for that to change. As I am finding out first hand.

Prosecution or defense?

 

[MaxBuck]

Prosecution or defense?

Expert witness.

 

[Larry B. Larabee]

Because the coloration you get from transducers is massive compared to the dirt in good line level electronics. Large enough to be audible without a doubt (or little doubt at least).

Maybe. We can't really be sure. Absolutely, transducers exhibit higher distortion than most components relatively they have similar performance if you restrict your criteria to manufacterers who take this business seriously. Surprisingly, very many speakers no matter the price these days turn out to be quite enjoyable and seem to still be able to make a distinction between a good or bad component. At reasonable listening levels modern speakers have distortion levels around 0.3%, higher at low frequencies sure but, we don't notice it. Never have I listened to a loudspeaker or read a review where someone came right out and said it's distorted or said that about an audio component for that matter. Other measureable characteristics I can't really associate with component testng other than FR. Other tests that are related to speaker performance just tell me that they differ not that one is better than the other.
Since I am speaking of relative comparisons, the speaker's imperfections are common across the board so similar measuring speakers should sound pretty much the same just like components and should be evaluated on test performance only. There is no need to listen because all you do is add a complication to this farce of objectivity above all.

This argument has been going on forever. There is no way objective and subjective evaluation will ever be separated, It doesn't make any difference what anyone says or does.

 

[antcollinet]

Do we have any measurements yet. If someone says it sounds good what's so hard to believe about that.
If it does measure well and everyone is convinced that this is the only criteria that matters the price won't make any difference 'objectively speaking'. If it measures either well or poorly and sounds like shit, it's a piece of shit.
You guys are just being single-minded ass-holes not making any valid arguments and always deliberately understating
any opinion based on the only thing that matters in this business, LISTENING to music. Leave the guy alone.

It's a streamer - it has one job, and that is to transfer an audio file from wherever it is stored (internally or on a server somewhere) to a DAC. Either it can do that competently - in which case it will "sound" exactly the same as every other competent streamer. Or it can't - in which case it is an expensive piece of junk.

If it is competent, then it is no better than my £100 Raspberry Pi streamer which is equally competent at transferring the file to a DAC. Which makes a 15K streamer around 99% snake oil.

 

[voodooless]

Other measureable characteristics I can't really associate with component testng other than FR. Other tests that are related to speaker performance just tell me that they differ not that one is better than the other.

Point is, you can actually tell them apart. “Better” is a totally different question which can be answered in some cases due to very obvious flaws. In other cases, it is far less clear. Here preference and the environment may dictate “better” or “worse”.

Since I am speaking of relative comparisons, the speaker's imperfections are common across the board so similar measuring speakers should sound pretty much the same just like components and should be evaluated on test performance only.

Except that they don’t exist. No speaker measure similar to another of a different brand, or even model. Things like KH80 and Genelec 8030C may be very close, but there is still a clearly audible difference.

Fun fact: a few years ago, there was a test with a variety of midrange units of various prices and sizes. They were carefully EQ’er to have equal response and then tested blind. The outcome was that is was near impossible to keep them all apart. But a single unit is different from a complete speaker and the test conditions were so that off-axis response was largely ignored. Reality however is far more complex.

There is no need to listen because all you do is add a complication to this farce of objectivity above all.

Yes, those listening tests are just a fun icing on the cake of a review. In general it doesn’t really add to the whole.

This argument has been going on forever. There is no way objective and subjective evaluation will ever be separated, It doesn't make any difference what anyone says or does.

It’s a conscious choice to make. You have to be aware of what subjective evaluations you can make, and which ones you cannot rely on.

 

[ahofer]

This argument has been going on forever. There is no way objective and subjective evaluation will ever be separated, It doesn't make any difference what anyone says or does.

I’m sure things can change. What I would welcome is doing subjective listening with some controls, so the reviewer can help us separate what they heard from what they imagined. It’s the refusal to even entertain this possibility that is the single most ridiculous and reprehensible feature of how products are sold and reviewed.

In the case of manufacturers, we can imagine they would not brag about controlled listening tests unless they were favorable. As for reviewers, i suppose the most likely reason is that they want to keep the myriad of imaginary and expensive improvements in the mix for fear of their jobs and status.

To be clear, I’m in favor of obtaining subjective differences that one prefers. But you’d think we’d want to know whether they can be reproduced reliably rather than dependent on what I had for lunch, how much sleep I got, or whether someone in the room farted recently.

 

[BDWoody]

Good point, I never noticed it was only those items. How is it that a listening session is needed for some components and not others? I should read Amir's manifesto before asking the same questions of you when you've heard them hundreds of times. Just the link would help.
Thanks,
L

There really isn't a manifesto as such...

Here is a great post/thread exploring limits of audibility. As you can see, it isn't some single hard number that is perfect for all frequencies and amplitudes, but a somewhat nebulous range. Where one decides they need to be in terms of component selection is up to them.

Audibility thresholds of amp and DAC measurements

Introduction A recurring theme on ASR is whether or not the various measured qualities of the devices are audible. In this post, I'll present some clear and visual thresholds for when those imperfections can be considered a potentially audible concern. I will not explain the basics of amp/DAC...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here is a bit more about Amir and his background for those who haven't stumbled across it:

A bit about your host....

This is a bit about your host, Amir Majidimehr. I am writing this as to give more context to people reading my technical reviews and measurements. I have realized that without this context, many assume I am yet another blogger spitting out graphs. That is very true but let’s see if we can...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Edit:

Also, here is a thread that illustrates just how small these numbers are. When someone claims their -120dBfs SINAD DAC sounds SO much cleaner than their -110dB one, do they understand what they are claiming?

The Shoutometer

We've all seen the Sound Pressure Level decibel reference tables where you have "quiet room", "chainsaw", "jet engine" and so on. While that is handy for estimating increased loudness in decibles, it didn't help me when thinking about the measurement levels obtained around here when measuring...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[anmpr1]

It's kind of depressing, or maybe embarrassing is the word, to be associated with a hobby which is laughed at, and looked with amazement and disbelief, by practioners of other hobbies.

$2,500 Ethernet Switch Effectively Isolates Audiophiles From Cash

Faraday Rage

www.tomshardware.com

 

[radix]

It's kind of depressing, or maybe embarrassing is the word, to be associated with a hobby which is laughed at, and looked with amazement and disbelief, by practioners of other hobbies.

$2,500 Ethernet Switch Effectively Isolates Audiophiles From Cash

Faraday Rage

www.tomshardware.com

Really hijacking the thread, but that switch looks like a pile of elephant droppings. On the manufacturer web site, they also promote using some active ground block to have a star-topology ground plane between your gear. Even though Ethernet is already totally isolated! And it comes with an AC power cord that looks more suited for a 1500 watt PDU.

 

[voodooless]

On the manufacturer web site, they also promote using some active ground block to have a star-topology ground plane between your gear.

Good grief! The other pages are even worse. This one for instance is total gibberish! The Germans would say: Kauderwelsch

 

[fatoldgit]

Good grief! The other pages are even worse. This one for instance is total gibberish! The Germans would say: Kauderwelsch

Not only that but your fish will taste better!!!

"Improvements over Blue Duplexes including a more refined sound with a larger sound stage, and more natural tambor."

According to the Webster dictionary:

Definition of tambor

1: any of several puffer fish
2: a red rockfish (Sebastodes ruberrimus) of the Pacific coast

Yeah so I am going to "invest" thousands of dollars in equipment from an "audio" company that cant spell timbre?

Peter