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$9 Headphone Review: Sony MDR-ZX110

DeepFried

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Nope. As already said, that the likelihood that two different headphone can ever have the exact same FR (below threshold of audibility) at your own eardrum is very low without going through a lot of efforts.

Therefore, since it remains an uncontrolled variable, you can’t attribute to another the cause of what you’re hearing.

Perhaps you didn't read the paper you linked to me. The 4 sample headphones were EQ'd and then recorded, and then played back over a set of stax. So given that all the samples were tested via a single set of headphones I think we can say variables attributable to the headphone interacting with the head have been minimized.
 

MayaTlab

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Perhaps you didn't read the paper you linked to me. The 4 sample headphones were EQ'd and then recorded, and then played back over a set of stax. So given that all the samples were tested via a single set of headphones I think we can say variables attributable to the headphone interacting with the head have been minimized.

I didn’t say that distortion wasn’t a concern (although it probably is for decently engineered headphones). Just that you can’t easily attribute to it the cause of what you’re hearing (and that you should be a lot more concerned with FR).
 

Flow

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I don't know, but does the frequency response only reflect the loudness of the spectrum of the sound, and not the quality of it? Aren't there at least innate differences of the sound that are going to come from the physical design of the headphone (like in-ear monitor versus over-ear open-back? ) I just find it very hard to believe that every headphone can be EQed to sound the same. If that is the case, why do engineers even try to come up with new designs and new drivers? why do they do research? Why didn't it stop in the early days of headphone drivers? A company can save money by not doing more research. They could fire a lot of their employees and keep using drivers they developed in the 60s or earlier. Admittedly, Beyer releases new versions of the 880 line and Koss releases new versions of the Portapro driver, i think (the KPH30i). Those came from the 1980s.

I read your other posts and this is my understanding of some of your thoughts.

* A headphone has a particular sound signature by design and these sound signatures are appropriate for different environments/music/preferences.
* You agree an EQ can change the frequency response.
* You have tried to change the designed sound of a headphone with EQ.
* You did not have the desired result as you were not able to find EQ parameters that applied universally but there were some scenarios where they improved the sound of the headphones.

So if some EQ parameters cannot be used in all scenarios it is deemed to have failed. However headphones are designed with a particular goal may also not sound great with a certain song/mood/preference. If a headphone is not good in all scenarios then how can a single set of EQ parameters also be applied successfully in all scenarios?
 

DeepFried

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I didn’t say that distortion wasn’t a concern (although it probably is for decently engineered headphones). Just that you can’t easily attribute to it the cause of what you’re hearing (and that you should be a lot more concerned with FR).

Ok I'll broadly agree with you there. If you have different sets of headphones that have substantially different FR curves that is probably going to be the stand out factor in quality and preference. But I think if the headphones are already fairly close to reference or are being EQ'd to target then we can say other audible factors are going to be playing a role, possibly a large role depending on the individual headphone or listening conditions.

By extension of that, if we assume that we're using DSP then the relative important of FR becomes much less, and we should start giving more weight to other factors in reviews.
 

stalepie2

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I read your other posts and this is my understanding of some of your thoughts.

* A headphone has a particular sound signature by design and these sound signatures are appropriate for different environments/music/preferences.
* You agree an EQ can change the frequency response.
* You have tried to change the designed sound of a headphone with EQ.
* You did not have the desired result as you were not able to find EQ parameters that applied universally but there were some scenarios where they improved the sound of the headphones.

So if some EQ parameters cannot be used in all scenarios it is deemed to have failed. However headphones are designed with a particular goal may also not sound great with a certain song/mood/preference. If a headphone is not good in all scenarios then how can a single set of EQ parameters also be applied successfully in all scenarios?
I suppose it can't, but there may be other factors at play, such as when the music was recorded, the target audience, the culture that surrounded it. There are various biases based on the type of music. It actually used to be the case there wasn't that much bass in rap music for instance, in comparison to how much there is now in modern pop. If you compare 80s hip hop to the EDM produced now. There's so many factors here about the kinds of music that have been made over the century. Then there's age, with older people not hearing as well. Some headphones seem more attractive to certain age groups and other demographic characteristics.

Then there's mood. People's mood changes. Sometimes they want more bass on Tuesday, then on Sunday they want less. Or at night they want it louder or quieter. I know with myself I grab a different pair of headphones because I want a different sound for a change. Like getting on new clothes because I'm tired of this shirt. So I'm expecting (ie, wanting) the next headphone to sound different. This is why the Harman target thing bothers me. If they all get tuned to the same averaged preference from study groups. It's like formulaic moviemaking in Hollywood. They do audience tests to decide what scenes should be cut or how the movie should be trimmed. You end up just with a McDonalds product that's been focus-tested. And that's "science," and that's basically McDonalds. McDonalds is scientifically what humans enjoy to eat. It has all the averages of salt, sugar and fat perfectly laid out to be addictive and enjoyable, I guess, that's why it sells the best. And so you don't need other restaurants that cost more, that promise "better" food, even though that's just subjective.
 

xykreinov

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So much talk, so little experimentation.
PEQ skeptics, I highly recommend you download AutoEQ: https://github.com/jaakkopasanen/AutoEq
The page outlines all the DSP program options as well.
If you have an Android device, there's a lovely app called DDC Toolbox that cooperates well with AutoEQ, there.
There are many targets and adjustments you can try that are built into AutoEQ.
I think these debates are silly when there are so many extensive DSP tools at our disposal that, through very quick trial and error, would give far straighter answers than all these purity semantics ever could.
 

uwotm8

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The 4 sample headphones were EQ'd and then recorded, and then played back over a set of stax
Science level: HARMAN;)
"Let's set up a specific experiment to "prove" our vision".
This as almost as good as chewing gum or toothpaste ads.
 

Brianc

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amirm

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Our measurements of headphones are not consistent or precise enough to ever answer the hypothetical question: "if you EQ two headphones will they sound the same?" Answer is that we can't EQ them that precisely. And further, you don't wear the headphones the same way it is measured on the fixture.
 

xykreinov

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Our measurements of headphones are not consistent or precise enough to ever answer the hypothetical question: "if you EQ two headphones will they sound the same?" Answer is that we can't EQ them that precisely. And further, you don't wear the headphones the same way it is measured on the fixture.
Unfortunately, it seems this issue sometimes detracts people from using EQ itself. "If EQ doesn't work well enough to make headphones sound the same, why use it at all?" seems to be the mantra.
Really, the main lesson is that making headphones of various sizes and types sound ideal in every situation is difficult. There are so many factors to consider, so many beyond the boundaries of solely analog tuning.
 

phoenixsong

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Apart from different EQ and damping, the drivers themselves matter too. Dan Clark Audio/MrSpeakers, whose headphones have been positively reviewed here, started as a small company modding the Fostex T50RP headphones with many revisions- Mad Dog, Alpha Dog etcetera, and in his ultimate model using that driver, the Alpha Prime. After which he ditched the driver and made his own, design-up. I believe there is a relation between this decision of his and the success of his products now
 

phoenixsong

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Not to mention the differences between open and closed back, electrostatic vs electrodynamic or planar magnetic whatever
 

phoenixsong

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Driver sizes count for something too. Amir himself mentioned in the Ananda review the pleasant auditory experience of listening to oversized (planar in this case) drivers
 

DeepFried

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Unfortunately, it seems this issue sometimes detracts people from using EQ itself. "If EQ doesn't work well enough to make headphones sound the same, why use it at all?" seems to be the mantra.
Really, the main lesson is that making headphones of various sizes and types sound ideal in every situation is difficult. There are so many factors to consider, so many beyond the boundaries of solely analog tuning.

For me the turn off with EQ is really just the fiddliness of it all. I'm often swappin between my headphones throughout the day, i'll even pick up my bluetooth headphones as I walk away from the desk then swap back when i return. Constantly having to change EQ profiles might drive me a little nuts.

However I am taking up the Amir PEQ challenge, I have a set of MDR-ZX110's arriving tomorrow, and i'm setting up carla for PEQ with jack which I already use, recommended by another user here

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nice-dsp-solution-for-linux.10113/

If I can get the PEQ working i'll report back my impressions :p who knows maybe i'll become an EQ convert.
 

xykreinov

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For me the turn off with EQ is really just the fiddliness of it all. I'm often swappin between my headphones throughout the day, i'll even pick up my bluetooth headphones as I walk away from the desk then swap back when i return. Constantly having to change EQ profiles might drive me a little nuts.

However I am taking up the Amir PEQ challenge, I have a set of MDR-ZX110's arriving tomorrow, and i'm setting up carla for PEQ with jack which I already use, recommended by another user here

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/nice-dsp-solution-for-linux.10113/

If I can get the PEQ working i'll report back my impressions :p who knows maybe i'll become an EQ convert.
Nice. I think the fiddliness of it all is the secret reason most EQ detractors have for their stance. I think they want to feel pride in saying they have more willingness or experience tinkering around with DSP than they actually have. It's a shame, cause it's a one and done thing that's only as fiddly as you make it, if you have the right software.
There are lots of programs that make the swapping easier. For example, Viper4Android not only lets you make as many presets as you desire, it even lets you make seperate presets that are only active for wired or Bluetooth. Same story with a few desktop applications like PulseEffects on Linux, can't remember which for Windows.
DDC Toolbox lets you just search for your headphone model, download EQ settings right from AutoEQ's repository, then apply it to your DSP program. You have all ten bands of PEQ with just a few taps. It's pretty magical. If you want to go further, it lets you make broad treble/bass adjustments on top of the pre-made EQ.
 

Flow

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I know with myself I grab a different pair of headphones because I want a different sound for a change. Like getting on new clothes because I'm tired of this shirt

Then you are not interested in the accurate reproduction of recordings. Nothing wrong with that choice but it is wrong to look at research around accurate sound reproduction through that lens and then determine that research will lead to a "McDonalds product".

Interestingly the Harman targets have made me much more willing to buy headphones. Until I found this forum and other resources that measure headphones and also provide EQ settings I thought that if I bought a headphone and hated it then that was the end of the matter.

This review is almost tempting enough to get me to try on-ear headphones again.
 

stalepie2

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Then you are not interested in the accurate reproduction of recordings. Nothing wrong with that choice but it is wrong to look at research around accurate sound reproduction through that lens and then determine that research will lead to a "McDonalds product".

Interestingly the Harman targets have made me much more willing to buy headphones. Until I found this forum and other resources that measure headphones and also provide EQ settings I thought that if I bought a headphone and hated it then that was the end of the matter.

This review is almost tempting enough to get me to try on-ear headphones again.
The Harman targets are averages, though. This means there are people tested during the study who think it needs more bass, more mids, or more treble, but whose vote is only averaged in with the rest. It doesn't quite suit them, it just kind of suits them, because it's an average of what most people studied like. It has also changed a lot over the years.

It is like trying to design clothes based on the averages of all body types, and then you find the average size and say this is scientifically the best clothes for humankind. And yes it fits most people, but it doesn't necessarily fit an individual that well. It might be too loose on one person, too tight on another, or needing to be composed of a stretchy material that adjusts its size but still looks unappealing in the end than a sharply tailored suit.
 

Flow

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The Harman targets are averages, though. This means there are people tested during the study who think it needs more bass, more mids, or more treble, but whose vote is only averaged in with the rest. It doesn't quite suit them, it just kind of suits them, because it's an average of what most people studied like. It has also changed a lot over the years.

Not an accurate representation of the research.

It is like trying to design clothes based on the averages of all body types, and then you find the average size and say this is scientifically the best clothes for humankind. And yes it fits most people, but it doesn't necessarily fit an individual that well. It might be too loose on one person, too tight on another, or needing to be composed of a stretchy material that adjusts its size but still looks unappealing in the end than a sharply tailored suit.

Clothes aren't trying to reproduce a signal. We could obviously both listen to the same headphone and have very different conclusions. That doesn't mean that we can't measure the output of that headphone and use that to guide our individual headphone preferences.
 

stalepie2

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Not an accurate representation of the research.



Clothes aren't trying to reproduce a signal. We could obviously both listen to the same headphone and have very different conclusions. That doesn't mean that we can't measure the output of that headphone and use that to guide our individual headphone preferences.

It's an apt metaphor because I'm talking about Harman and not just a flat frequency response. People who want Harman don't want a flat frequency response. They are trying to address the problem that headphones do not sound flat when given a flat frequency response to the ear. It works differently from speakers. So to address the perception there is commonly a desire to have more bass than just the diffuse field equalization like older headphones aimed for. Usually diffuse field people often thought sounded too bright. But diffuse field is more like a loudspeaker's (ideal) flat frequency response.

It's just... people have different shapes of heads and ears and ear canals. Paul Barton talked about this one, the shape of the ear canals bends differently in some people, affecting their hearing of treble. I don't know how a one-size-fits-all EQ standard is supposed to account for that.

 
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