8030C and KH120 - Subjective Listening Tests

[changer]

Thank you for your impressions. I regularly listen at night shifts at the public broadcasting offices to music on 8030As. They are mounted to the wall and I sit in a midfield position, at ~ 3.5-4 meters from them. I was always very surprised about their prominent base, which I certainly enjoyed. Compared to my own speakers, I thought the timbre of the highs was interesting: on the one hand, somehow a bit dark and relaxed, on the other, a very wide image with nice and crisp placement. I love those speakers for music listening.

 

[jumper981]

Indeed. Initial reactions here were bizarre. Of course it's fine to state subjective perceptions, as long as one is clear that this is what one does, as OP very clearly did.

Much more interesting than "please don't post this" is to engage in a discussion about why he heard those differences. Were they real or imagined? If they were real, what can account for the differences? Etc.

I know that they are quite bizarre, that’s because I don’t have a really good english in the end, so I just try to stay as much as simple as I can while describing my simple impressions.
I actually don’t know why I heard those differences, probably just “timbre” difference between those two.
And as I said, here it’s full of measurements and that’s why I actually was oriented buying Genelecs as much as the Neumanns; but seems that actually with some simple listening tests I don’t quite liked them despite the measurements.
As I said I’m also a measurement guy and if I just relied on measurements I probably ended up slightly disappointed. That’s why I perform also listening tests.
Measurements point you to which speaker deserves to be listened, but in the end, I should work with them everyday, so a listening test is also important to find what it could work better for you (and obviously not that good for others).

 

[oivavoi]

I know that they are quite bizarre, that’s because I don’t have a really good english in the end, so I just try to stay as much as simple as I can while describing my simple impressions.
I actually don’t know why I heard those differences, probably just “timbre” difference between those two.
And as I said, here it’s full of measurements and that’s why I actually was oriented buying Genelecs as much as the Neumanns; but seems that actually with some simple listening tests I don’t quite liked them despite the measurements.
As I said I’m also a measurement guy and if I just relied on measurements I probably ended up slightly disappointed. That’s why I perform also listening tests.
Measurements point you to which speaker deserves to be listened, but in the end, I should work with them everyday, so a listening test is also important to find what it could work better for you (and obviously not that good for others).

I didn't mean that your perceptions as a listener were bizarre. I meant that it was bizarre for people here to ask you to not write about such subjective perceptions.

The concept of timbre in loudspeakers is difficult, though. In principle it should be captured by the frequence response. But perceived timbre will also be impacted by distortion in the loudspeakers and by reflections in the room. Reflected sound actually mean quite a lot for timbre peceptions. There migh also be other things which affect our perception of timbre but which we still don't really know how to quantify psychoacoustically, such as intermodulation distortion and how overtones and harmonics are created in the loudspeaker. I'm not sure if that shows up in "simple" frequency response plots.

 

[Adi777]

And as I said, here it’s full of measurements and that’s why I actually was oriented buying Genelecs as much as the Neumanns; but seems that actually with some simple listening tests I don’t quite liked them despite the measurements.

There is a very nice topic on the forum, something like - the best active loudspeakers you've heard, from the best to the worst. If I good remember, lot of people wrote there, that they prefer Geithain vs Genelec. Genelec have better, maybe even much better measurements, so...

 

[jumper981]

I know that they are quite bizarre, that’s because I don’t have a really good english in the end, so I just try to stay as much as simple as I can while describing my simple impressions.
I actually don’t know why I heard those differences, probably just “timbre” difference between those two.
And as I said, here it’s full of measurements and that’s why I actually was oriented buying Genelecs as much as the Neumanns; but seems that actually with some simple listening tests I don’t quite liked them despite the measurements.
As I said I’m also a measurement guy and if I just relied on measurements I probably ended up slightly disappointed. That’s why I perform also listening tests.
Measurements point you to which speaker deserves to be listened, but in the end, I should work with them everyday, so a listening test is also important to find what it could work better for you (and obviously not that good for others).

Thanks for your response, now I get it.
I thought also that one thing to consider is that materials used like in the cone or tweeter change over time and that also depends on ambient temperatures sometimes.
I mean, there are parameters that a “static” measure don’t consider.
Just to tell one about amps, transistors used in final stages (like class A,class AB) change in temperature, and so they change their characteristic bias point; that could also give different distortion values.
Also, we are measuring semi-static parameters actually, and there are parameters like slew rate of op amps that are meant to be dynamic parameters, and that could change drastically the impulse response (that’s why in some stages is preferred to use a couple of matched zero-drift jfets; obviously there are zero drift op amps, not cost friendly).

 

[Tangband]

Hi to all!

In this week I tried both the KH120 and the 8030C models next to each one during production and mixing tests in a treated room.
Despite the measurements posted here on ASR, i was actually not that impressed by the Genelecs.
I’m a measurements guy and today for the first time I listened “timbre” differences between speakers that perform similar in measurements.

Listening test summary:

KH120:
Bass was really good and controlled (like “dry”), and actually not that “pumped” relying by the fact that it’s reflex-ported; seems was coming from a sealed one.
What actually surprised me about the KH120, was transients and details of the tweeter despite they have a somewhat “dark” timbre; every percussion and hats was coming out really defined on both transient and consistency of the spectrum, and while equalizing channels I was able to listen every small change in the equalizer (+- 0.3 dB)
Highs are a touch darker for my preference, I can describe them like “not coming from a ribbon” but I really really liked them.

8030C:
Bass was good and seemed deeper in frequency but a bit uncontrolled next to the Neumann.
What really doesn’t have a good impact on me was the highs (like on center frequency of 2K and disliked much the highest from 8K to 20K, probably for it’s metal dome, don’t know); they were likely not cohesive on listening test with professional masters done on Kii Three’s room and seemed much confused and not that clearly presented as the Neumann.

That is a highly subjective review, despite both of them were tested under the same conditions in the same period of time (3 days).
I actually have done some measurements of them in this room, for checking their accuracy to the measurements done here on ASR (my measurements was actually good next to the ASR measurements).

Don’t take this as a review of those speakers, but as a prove to myself that despite really good measurements (and they are fundamental), listening tests are also significant and you should pick the one that is good for you and not just for measurements.
I’m a “trained” listener.

Next is to try 8341A and KH310.

Cheers!

I have heard both, and my experience is the opposite. The Genelec sound better. But some objective fact is probably that both speakers are really good, much better than any passive loudspeaker at the same size .
The Neumann kh120 is 15% more expensive.
One other fact is that neither Neumann or Genelec uses standard bassdrivers from Peerless sls or hds series.
They are specially made units ( by thympany ? ) with much lower distortion in the motor system - only the chassies are the same.

 

[jumper981]

I have heard both, and my experience is the opposite. The Genelec sound better. But some objective fact is probably that both speakers are really good, much better than any passive loudspeaker at the same size .

Thanks.
Yes for sure they are both really good speakers for their size.

That’s why in the end listening test matters, what is good for me, it’s not necessarily good for others.
I think that for sure there is someone over ASR that buy only checking measurements (maybe because test are inaccessible also) and spent also much more on speakers than those two presented in this thread.

 

[Tangband]

Thanks.
Yes for sure they are both really good speakers for their size.

That’s why in the end listening test matters, what is good for me, it’s not necessarily good for others.
I think that for sure there is someone over ASR that buy only checking measurements (maybe because test are inaccessible also) and spent also much more on speakers than those two presented in this thread.

Only about 70% of a loudspeaker sound can be judged by Amirms reviews. 30% is differences in sound that cant be measured with the klippel system.

To make this even more complicated - wrong speakerposition of the two stereo speakers in the listening room can completely ruin good speakers.
A diffuse sounding source gonna give good listening results if the tweeter has a sharper sound, and the opposite is also true - a sharp sounding source gonna be prefered with a loudspeaker that has a soft sounding tweeter with maybe less details.
One really has to listen before buying.

 

[aarons915]

Only about 70% of a loudspeaker sound can be judged by Amirms reviews. 30% is differences in sound that cant be measured with the klippel system.

To make this even more complicated - wrong speakerposition of the two stereo speakers in the listening room can completely ruin good speakers.
A diffuse sounding source gonna give good listening results if the tweeter has a sharper sound, and the opposite is also true - a sharp sounding source gonna be prefered with a loudspeaker that has a soft sounding tweeter with maybe less details.
One really has to listen before buying.

I'm not sure I agree with this, I do think everything we hear can be measured by a Klippel but maybe we don't understand exactly how all of the measurements correlate to perceived sound quality yet. The KH120 are the perfect example for me, I tried them out last year and thought they sounded great in a living room setup but they started fatiguing me after a short period. I attributed the fatigue to the vertical plane because it creates a peak at 3k in the in-room response, this isn't evident just by looking at the Spin but if you dig in deeper to the vertical measurements it is very obvious. Of course listening to speakers is always going to be important but I try to correlate what I'm hearing with what the measurements show and I get a little better with every new speaker.

 

[caught gesture]

I'm not sure I agree with this, I do think everything we hear can be measured by a Klippel but maybe we don't understand exactly how all of the measurements correlate to perceived sound quality yet.

It is becoming increasingly clear that the mind/brain and body are intimately linked, and that the body influences our thoughts and emotions. I imagine, if we can keep a world that supports human life for long enough, our biases, emotions, feelings, etc, will all be mapped by science and the Descartes idea of separation of mind and brain will gather dust as a footnote in human history. All our conscious and unconscious responses will be measurable.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Waiting for your 8341A and KH310 impressions
Thanks

 

[caught gesture]

Waiting for your 8341A and KH310 impressions
Thanks

Waiting for you to buy some new speakers

 

[jumper981]

Waiting for your 8341A and KH310 impressions
Thanks

At the end, ordered a pair of KH150, if everything is good, they should arrive this week.
As soon as they arrive, will post some measurements over there.

EDIT:
I listened the entire lineup of Neumann here at the distributor (so no measurements).
I liked both the 150 and the 310; preferred the first one for both features and sound.
They are really similar in some ways, 310 had a better bass of course for it’s
sealed design, but was not enough to jump at the higher price of the 310.
As a nearfield and 2-way fan I preferred the 150.
Midrange and highs was quite similar: the 310 give a more bigger and “diffused” sound, while the 150 were more focused.
Class D, digital inputs, newer design and focused sound is why I preferred them.
For sure I will post measurements of them in my room as soon as they arrive.

 

[Friedrich]

Thank you for your impressions. I regularly listen at night shifts at the public broadcasting offices to music on 8030As. They are mounted to the wall and I sit in a midfield position, at ~ 3.5-4 meters from them. I was always very surprised about their prominent base, which I certainly enjoyed. Compared to my own speakers, I thought the timbre of the highs was interesting: on the one hand, somehow a bit dark and relaxed, on the other, a very wide image with nice and crisp placement. I love those speakers for music listening.

If these are mounted to the wall you could check whether any of the dip switches are on. In this position the 4th switch (-4db bass) should be engaged (as per Genelec recommendation).

 

[YSC]

Interesting impressions, somehow I always wonders the actual positioning of the speakers and the room config, just to say the tweeter height, port distance to wall and dispersion related reflections etc. always wonder if any in room measurement can explain the difference.

 

[Pearljam5000]

At the end, ordered a pair of KH150, if everything is good, they should arrive this week.
As soon as they arrive, will post some measurements over there.

EDIT:
I listened the entire lineup of Neumann here at the distributor (so no measurements).
I liked both the 150 and the 310; preferred the first one for both features and sound.
They are really similar in some ways, 310 had a better bass of course for it’s
sealed design, but was not enough to jump at the higher price of the 310.
As a nearfield and 2-way fan I preferred the 150.
Midrange and highs was quite similar: the 310 give a more bigger and “diffused” sound, while the 150 were more focused.
Class D, digital inputs, newer design and focused sound is why I preferred them.
For sure I will post measurements of them in my room as soon as they arrive.

Sorry but can you explain what do you mean by "diffused" sound?

 

[Recluse-Animator]

A professional mixing engineer gives a brief description of his impressions of two well regarded monitors, makes no outlandish claims, states plainly that it is just his subjective opinion, and gets criticized for it? Why? If he starts claiming that switching to $600 cables improved the bass, or adding a power conditioner lifted veils, then by all means, call him out, but "science review" does not mean we can't state our own experiences, as long as we're not claiming unproven theories as facts. If you don't find it useful, then why not just move on to the next thread?

Welcome to the internet.

 

[jumper981]

Sorry but can you explain what do you mean by "diffused" sound?

Like a bigger soundstage overall

 

[jumper981]

Interesting impressions, somehow I always wonders the actual positioning of the speakers and the room config, just to say the tweeter height, port distance to wall and dispersion related reflections etc. always wonder if any in room measurement can explain the difference.

I was always between 1.5m and 2m, as actually it’s my listening distance.

Room was treated, monitors (150 and 120)were positioned on the horizontal plane like near the 310 in this order:
KH150–>KH310–>KH120
From external to internal

Under the desk there was a KH750 Sub, that I listened with 150 and 120, turning it on/off

 

[Pluto]

Listening test summary

Did you perform one of the most simple and, I would argue, useful tests of all?

Listening to a (preferably familiar) male voice speaking, recorded on a (preferably omnidirectional) microphone in a decent room and reproduced at a realistic level?

Such tests can be uncannily revealing when asking yourself the simple question, “does it actually sound anything like the real thing?”

We are, mostly, far more used to listening to ordinary people speak than anything else, and are very well-evolved to detect when things aren't quite right.

I have known hordes of well-renowned speakers fail utterly under these conditions.