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802 D3 vs Revel Salon 2

polmuaddib

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Did you measured the speakers in the same time?
First measured mmm and couple minutes later did the sweep.
i know that I have a null in 42 to 46hz area, depending on the speaker position. I was surprised to see that peak at 70hz. I don’t have that in other speaker’s measurements. Something about that central position, maybe IKEA sideboard below the speaker, maybe TV behind the speaker... don’t know.
 

Frgirard

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First measured mmm and couple minutes later did the sweep.
i know that I have a null in 42 to 46hz area, depending on the speaker position. I was surprised to see that peak at 70hz. I don’t have that in other speaker’s measurements. Something about that central position, maybe IKEA sideboard below the speaker, maybe TV behind the speaker... don’t know.

You must measured one speaker at each measurement.
With the two speakers in function you have destructive interferences and the coupling of the bass frequencies.

You must be outside the room during the measures.
 

dougi

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I agree, but that measurement is without eq. I normally listen to it through Audyssey and crossed at 40hz to subs. I suppose that Audyssey brings that peak down.
I don't measure through AVR because it's not easy to connect audio interface to it. Not impossible, just complicated..
I've finally gone through all of that rigmarole with Windows HDMI/ASIO4ALL and REW to be able to do AVR any channel stimilus. It took some effort but worth it. There is a guide around somewhere showing step by step how to do it but I cant put my hand on the link. Setting up ASIO4ALL to handle different input and output devices seems to be the key.
 

restorer-john

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The Nautilus 801s the OP owned/owns are an incredible speaker. Personally, when I auditioned the successors back around 2004ish, the N801s were my preference. I should have bought them there and then.

And infinitely better looking to this day than the current models from either Revel or B&W.
 

Kal Rubinson

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B&W 802 D3 vs Monitor Audio Platinum 500 ll vs Dynaudio Confidence 30. (I like the Dynaudio 30). Is there anyone here who can translate what their final summary is?
Nope but I am betting that they sound significantly different. (Confidence 30s in house now.)
 

richard12511

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I've finally gone through all of that rigmarole with Windows HDMI/ASIO4ALL and REW to be able to do AVR any channel stimilus. It took some effort but worth it. There is a guide around somewhere showing step by step how to do it but I cant put my hand on the link. Setting up ASIO4ALL to handle different input and output devices seems to be the key.

Would you mind sharing that guide? I've been trying to get ASIO4All to work for months now to try Audiolense. So far, I've been unsuccessful :(.
 

DonH56

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The Nautilus 801s the OP owned/owns are an incredible speaker. Personally, when I auditioned the successors back around 2004ish, the N801s were my preference. I should have bought them there and then.

And infinitely better looking to this day than the current models from either Revel or B&W.

I have a gap around the time the Nautilus series came out; work and growing family meant stereo took a back-door for a while. I remember some of the early B&W models, like the DM series (including the curved DQ-10'ish DM70), but my listening experience started with 801 and then Matrix 801 series. I planned on 801's but ended up getting Maggies instead. The Nautilus I heard (nice sound, strange aesthetics), and then N801, but briefly and rarely. I did (do) like the rounded "dome" housings better than the hex'ish boxes of the earlier models. I didn't really listen to B&W again until the diamond series, when a couple of friends were looking for new speakers and we did a lot of auditioning (original D and D2, I have heard the D3 only briefly). I did little auditioning before getting my Revels; life was just too crazy, and after a year or so of piddling through the process I was able to get a great deal on a pair of Salon2's and made the jump.

I wish I had done a little more listening just to have a broader range, like to the Focal speakers the dealer was pushing, but my work hours were (are) pretty crazy and I just don't have the time and enthusiasm for spending hours and hours driving around and listening to all the different brands and models like I did when I was younger. Plus it is harder now; back then, I worked at some dealers and could easily hear a cross section of highly-regarded speakers. These days, a lot of the top models are not stocked, and around here you often have to drive for hours to listen to different brands.

I prefer the Revel Salon2's lines but am fairly agnostic about looks. I am not a fan of big horns look-wise but honestly don't pay much attention to cabinets; the Salon2's or 80xDn-series look nice to me.
 
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dougi

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I think the MiniDSP guide covers most of it. Using the UMIK-1 and REW with HDMI output - Windows (minidsp.com) but there was a more detailed one but I can't find it at the moment. They key is to use ASIO4ALL so that you can use two different devices for input and output wihtout JAVA. You first need to configure the HDMI WIndows device (ensure it is connected first) to multichannel mode under the windows sound settings.
 

dougi

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Cadguy

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Nope but I am betting that they sound significantly different. (Confidence 30s in house now.)
Kal, I'm looking forward to your review of the Confidence 30s! They're on my short list for my next speakers and I'll be very interested in your impression of their bass performance and your opinion of the Esotar 3 tweeters.
 

Tangband

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Possibly because they increasingly use their house curve, which is heavy on the treble in the areas you describe. Paradigm does this too, and I find it fatiguing after 15-20 minutes (subjectively).

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

View attachment 127752
A frequency response like that ( + 3 dB at 4 kHz, + 5 dB at 10 kHz ) measured from 1,27 meters like John Atkinson does, is surely very revealing for how the loudspeaker will sound from the listening position. That coloration is going to be heard on every recording .
To minimize coloration, the response from 1.27 meter should be quite flat, meaning less than +- 2dB dB from 600 Hz to 20000 Hz in an ordinary listening room. Genelecs from 8030c and more expensive ones can manage that. Most Revel speaker are much
more frequency-accurate than the 802d3.

FE6453D6-3BA8-4418-B2EB-54A24A794D85.png
 
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richard12511

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The Nautilus 801s the OP owned/owns are an incredible speaker. Personally, when I auditioned the successors back around 2004ish, the N801s were my preference. I should have bought them there and then.

And infinitely better looking to this day than the current models from either Revel or B&W.

I prefer the more rounded aesthetic of current 800 towers(probably my all time favorite look, along with top SF), but it does seem that those older models were more neutral. Hopefully the D4s go back to that more neutral sound.
 
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richard12511

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I think the MiniDSP guide covers most of it. Using the UMIK-1 and REW with HDMI output - Windows (minidsp.com) but there was a more detailed one but I can't find it at the moment. They key is to use ASIO4ALL so that you can use two different devices for input and output wihtout JAVA. You first need to configure the HDMI WIndows device (ensure it is connected first) to multichannel mode under the windows sound settings.

Unfortunately, Ive gone through that guide several times, and I’ve setup the HDMI device correctly in Windows, but Audiolense gives me “sound card not supported” when I try to measure :(. The issue lies with either HDMI or ASIO4All IMO, as I’ve tried 3 different windows machines and 2 AVRs. HDMI and ASIO were the only constants between all those devices.Anyways, this is off topic, so I’ll stop, but figured I’d ask.
 

Tonygeno

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A frequency response like that ( + 3 dB at 4 kHz, + 5 dB at 10 kHz ) measured from 1,27 meters like John Atkinson does, is surely very revealing for how the loudspeaker will sound from the listening position. That coloration is going to be heard on every recording .
To minimize coloration, the response from 1.27 meter should be quite flat, meaning less than +- 2dB dB from 600 Hz to 20000 Hz in an ordinary listening room. Genelecs from 8030c and more expensive ones can manage that. Most Revel speaker are much
more frequency-accurate than the 802d3.

View attachment 127909
That frequency response is a joke. Definitely not the closest approach to the original sound. What I don't understand is, if live, unamplified music is one's reference, how can anyone prefer this frequency response? If you have no reference, then I guess any frequency response will do if you find it pleasing, no matter how it colors everything you listen to.
 

blueone

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That frequency response is a joke. Definitely not the closest approach to the original sound. What I don't understand is, if live, unamplified music is one's reference, how can anyone prefer this frequency response? If you have no reference, then I guess any frequency response will do if you find it pleasing, no matter how it colors everything you listen to.

I wouldn't call it a joke at all. From 7KHz on down the plot looks pretty good. Note the remarkable similarity in the response compared to the 802D Atkinson measured over 15 years ago:

1620147993193.png


https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

Neither chart explains the extra "presence" I've heard on soprano voices with the B&Ws. They do perhaps explain the cymbals that seem to shimmer more, and perhaps some of the listener fatigue people sometimes talk about with this product line.
 

Coach_Kaarlo

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And here we have it.

One. Just one.

One easily recorded measurement being used as representative justification for the entire sound profile of a speaker. If this is the best we can to contribute to inform others regarding the differences between Salon 2's and B&W 80x Dn's then let's just start discussing the colour......

Regret the time spent reading this, but enjoyed typing this.
 
OP
M

MasterApex

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I wouldn't call it a joke at all. From 7KHz on down the plot looks pretty good. Note the remarkable similarity in the response compared to the 802D Atkinson measured over 15 years ago:

View attachment 127910

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

Neither chart explains the extra "presence" I've heard on soprano voices with the B&Ws. They do perhaps explain the cymbals that seem to shimmer more, and perhaps some of the listener fatigue people sometimes talk about with this product line.

I think the extra "presence" or what I called "life-like" is beyond frequency response plot.
It may be how accurate the speaker itself reproducing the sounds (slew rate, damping) and the lack of cabinet resonance which would defocus the sound.
 

DonH56

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I wouldn't call it a joke at all. From 7KHz on down the plot looks pretty good. Note the remarkable similarity in the response compared to the 802D Atkinson measured over 15 years ago:

View attachment 127910

https://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements

Neither chart explains the extra "presence" I've heard on soprano voices with the B&Ws. They do perhaps explain the cymbals that seem to shimmer more, and perhaps some of the listener fatigue people sometimes talk about with this product line.

The 3 kHz peak will emphasize upper vocal overtones. A lot of vocal mics have a similar "presence peak" (marketed as such) to help vocals "cut through" the mix. A lot of people like it, and it works on some material, just not all IME/IMO. The rising response to 10 kHz will emphasize the higher transients and such but we are less sensitive to those frequencies. Note the 3 kHz peak is about 3 dB; I would consider it "noticeable" but it is not a huge bump up. The combination can emphasis upper frequencies and explain why some folk might use words like "faster" or "greater presence" and such when describing the sound.
 

MZKM

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I think the extra "presence" or what I called "life-like" is beyond frequency response plot.
It may be how accurate the speaker itself reproducing the sounds (slew rate, damping) and the lack of cabinet resonance which would defocus the sound.
Slew rate is based on frequency response, mostly on the amp side.
Damping does relate to impedance, but it’s mostly on your amp and cables.

As pointed out, the Revel has no audible cabinet resonances (nor should any speaker at this price point).
 
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