7.2.6 AVR recommendations

[Movie_Nerd]

Hi I'm new to this forum and have read through a lot of posts only to have more questions than when I began.
I currently have a AWOL projector with a 120" screen. Using a Pioneer elite VSX-LX503 11.2 driving Klipsch RP-8060FA a Klipsch 12" sub a deftech supercube 4000 a deftech 9060 center and 4 Mag8R ceiling speakers.
I am not in love with my AVR and would really like to be able to drive an additional 2 speakers. I had thought about the arcam AVR20 9.2.6 but the reviews made me think twice. I watch a lot of movies 4k UHD blu ray's as well as 3D movies on bluray. I also stream movies and TV.
I could leave well enough alone but I really want good sound for my system. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[AlexanderM]

Budget?

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

I am of the opinion, and I think many others would agree with me, that having more channels is not always better. You already have a ton of speakers, so unless you are in a massive room, then you have enough speakers to create a good surround field, given good positioning.
You would probably be better served by optimizing what you have (positioning, basic room treatment, etc), and by spending the cost of that AVR upgrade on some proper subwoofers.

You could get 2 SVS PB-2000 pro, and a UMIK-1 for less than the price of replacing that receiver. Having those subs would definitely improve your experience, and the onboard DSP of the SVS subs would allow you to properly EQ them and correct for the room modes. You could also probably spend some of that budget on replacing the center channel with something better. Although I am not an expert on center speakers, so I will not recommend anything specific.

After you replace your subs, I would recommend just taking the time to optimize what you have. With the exception of Sony's brand new receivers (too new to recommend), or a fancy Trinnov processor ($$$$$$), then basically every receiver operates under the assumption that the speakers are located at the correct (See dolby's speaker layout guides) angles from the listening position. Getting these angles right is critical to getting a good surround field, especially with atmos and other immersive formats.
If you position your speakers correctly, and then position your subs correctly, then you are 70% the way there. Auto room correction can then easily get you another 10%. To get the last 20% you will need to fix the room with room treatments and by fixing the walls... Which isn't always practical.

 

[AlexanderM]

The Denon 8500 is 13.2.

 

[Movie_Nerd]

I am of the opinion, and I think many others would agree with me, that having more channels is not always better. You already have a ton of speakers, so unless you are in a massive room, then you have enough speakers to create a good surround field, given good positioning.
You would probably be better served by optimizing what you have (positioning, basic room treatment, etc), and by spending the cost of that AVR upgrade on some proper subwoofers.

You could get 2 SVS PB-2000 pro, and a UMIK-1 for less than the price of replacing that receiver. Having those subs would definitely improve your experience, and the onboard DSP of the SVS subs would allow you to properly EQ them and correct for the room modes. You could also probably spend some of that budget on replacing the center channel with something better. Although I am not an expert on center speakers, so I will not recommend anything specific.

After you replace your subs, I would recommend just taking the time to optimize what you have. With the exception of Sony's brand new receivers (too new to recommend), or a fancy Trinnov processor ($$$$$$), then basically every receiver operates under the assumption that the speakers are located at the correct (See dolby's speaker layout guides) angles from the listening position. Getting these angles right is critical to getting a good surround field, especially with atmos and other immersive formats.
If you position your speakers correctly, and then position your subs correctly, then you are 70% the way there. Auto room correction can then easily get you another 10%. To get the last 20% you will need to fix the room with room treatments and by fixing the walls... Which isn't always practical.

Thank you for the info. I wasn't really sure if it was the AVR that wasn't giving me the cleanest sound or something else. Room size is 14x20 so I don't think I have to many speakers but I will look more into positioning. Are you aware of a good piece of software that can help me. I used the on board setup from my AVR but it really didn't help determine if I needed to adjust the direction of the ceiling speakers or surrounds for that matter.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[Movie_Nerd]

Budget?

I 'D like to keep it under 3k if possible.

 

[Vacceo]

I think the additional height channels will not add much to what you have already. Perception of sound coming from above is not as accurate as the sound coming from the front. How many rows of seats do you have?

 

[techsamurai]

What's wrong with the sound? Is it bass? Is it music?

Is it the clarity of the dialogue? Does the soundtrack not engage you?

I'm guessing it's not the 6 height speakers as you'd have to find the moments and test them... but it could be. I'm assuming that there are no cathedral ceilings or you have specially angled speakers if that's the case.

 

[AlexanderM]

I 'D like to keep it under 3k if possible.

The new Sony is pre-order, might want to wait until it's reviewed and perhaps goes on sale, may be a while. $3299.99. Or, try and find a used or B-stock Denon 8500, would be another option. Might be tough to find what you are looking for in that price range, especially something that has been positively reviewed.

Sony ES STR-AZ7000ES

13.2-channel home theater receiver with Dolby Atmos®, Bluetooth®, Apple AirPlay® 2, and Chromecast built-in

www.crutchfield.com

 

[techsamurai]

I had thought about the arcam AVR20 9.2.6 but the reviews made me think twice. I watch a lot of movies 4k UHD blu ray's as well as 3D movies on bluray. I also stream movies and TV.

Whoa, whoa! Full stop buddy! The AVR20 is a 16 channel pre-amp but only powers 7 channels. You're going to need an external amp for 6 channels and you can't just farm the LCR out to a beefier amp as you'd still be out 3 more channels. There are a few 6 channel amps but mostly 8 channels.

As others mentioned, the only AVRs that power 13 channels in a single chassis without external amplification are the Denon X8500 and the upcoming Sony 7000ES.

I'm not sure the 2 channels are worth the extra expense and effort although the 7000's spatial audio might be worth the effort for movies.

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

Thank you for the info. I wasn't really sure if it was the AVR that wasn't giving me the cleanest sound or something else. Room size is 14x20 so I don't think I have to many speakers but I will look more into positioning. Are you aware of a good piece of software that can help me. I used the on board setup from my AVR but it really didn't help determine if I needed to adjust the direction of the ceiling speakers or surrounds for that matter.
Thanks again for the info.

Because your AVR only has a mono measurement microphone, it can't tell where the speakers are in the room. All it knows is the time delay between it sending a signal to the speaker, and the sound reaching the mic.
The only 2 processors I know of that have the ability to tell you if you placed the speakers properly would be the Trinnov Altitude series, and the new Sony receivers that were linked above.
Adjusting the placement and direction of your speakers is something you need to do manually. The speakers should ideally be pointed directly at the main listening position, and the placement is governed by angles, as we can easily correct for distance (it's just a time delay). I linked some stuff below.

Some resources for you to look at are:
https://www.dolby.com/about/support/guide/speaker-setup-guides/7.1.4-overhead-speaker-setup-guide/
This is a guide to positioning your speakers. Getting this right will allow the receiver to properly place the atmos effects and for you to get a better sound field.

If you get a measurement mic, like this one: https://www.minidsp.com/products/acoustic-measurement/umik-1 you will be able to use it in conjunction with software like Room EQ Wizzard (https://www.roomeqwizard.com/) to verify your system performance. However, keep in mind that getting sound from a PC to a multi-channel av receiver can be weird, so it may take some effort to get it to work.

Lastly, earlier I recommended getting some better subwoofers (like the SVS PB-2000) and properly positioning them. Subwoofer placement can be a bit crazy, but this video:

seems to be pretty good.
Although I have not watched all his videos, you may want to check him out as he seems to know what he is doing.

And lastly, if you are having clarity issues with the system, make sure to set all your speakers to "small" in the receiver, and set the crossovers somewhere around 60-80hz. The "large" setting will not high pass the signal going to the speakers, which in turn can lead to them trying to play deep bass, which they just aren't made to do. Using the "small" setting will send the deep bass to your subwoofers, which, if you optimize them correctly, will lead to better sound.


But, with all that being said: What is you issue with the current set up? I don't really see anything that is "completely horrible" about your equipment, so I must ask, what makes you want to change stuff?

 

[RF Air]

Hi I'm new to this forum and have read through a lot of posts only to have more questions than when I began.
I currently have a AWOL projector with a 120" screen. Using a Pioneer elite VSX-LX503 11.2 driving Klipsch RP-8060FA a Klipsch 12" sub a deftech supercube 4000 a deftech 9060 center and 4 Mag8R ceiling speakers.
I am not in love with my AVR and would really like to be able to drive an additional 2 speakers. I had thought about the arcam AVR20 9.2.6 but the reviews made me think twice. I watch a lot of movies 4k UHD blu ray's as well as 3D movies on bluray. I also stream movies and TV.
I could leave well enough alone but I really want good sound for my system. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Hello and welcome to the Forum! By the information you have posted, I would start with placement and balance of what you have to redefine what you are hearing and the performance you are currently getting from your system. There is Forum member here @DavidMcRoy that has your AVR and is pretty comfortable with his system. I would recommend using other's experience first before venturing into the unknown with expectations of fixing an unidentifiable problem. Simple "Half-Split" troubleshooting procedure is a basic form of elimination of determining what is working and what is not working.

I think it is a big "ask" of your system to be performant with so much going on. My view would be to take down (isolate) some of Speaker Drivers and start with the basics. Dial in you 2.2 Set-up and then try 3.2. Then move to 5.2, and 7.2 with tweaks along the way. Getting the best positions and levels for each Speaker is much of the battle along with all of the other consideration of room environment and seating/listening positions. Add Atmos last and start by adding 2 channels ( Front Hi L&R) and keep playing with the placement and settings to see what fits your environment.

It's best to know where the problem is before tweaking with add-ons and spending more money. Know what needs to be fixed before you fix it. Good Luck @Movie_Nerd , it appears that you have a nice Home Theater that just needs some "dialing in".

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Hello and welcome to the Forum! By the information you have posted, I would start with placement and balance of what you have to redefine what you are hearing and the performance you are currently getting from your system. There is Forum member here @DavidMcRoy that has your AVR and is pretty comfortable with his system. I would recommend using other's experience first before venturing into the unknown with expectations of fixing an unidentifiable problem. Simple "Half-Split" troubleshooting procedure is a basic form of elimination of determining what is working and what is not working.

I think it is a big "ask" of your system to be performant with so much going on. My view would be to take down (isolate) some of Speaker Drivers and start with the basics. Dial in you 2.2 Set-up and then try 3.2. Then move to 5.2, and 7.2 with tweaks along the way. Getting the best positions and levels for each Speaker is much of the battle along with all of the other consideration of room environment and seating/listening positions. Add Atmos last and start by adding 2 channels ( Front Hi L&R) and keep playing with the placement and settings to see what fits your environment. It's best to know where the problem is before tweaking with add-ons and spending more money. Know what needs to be fixed before you fix it. Good Luck @Movie_Nerd , it appears that you have a nice Home Theater that just needs some "dialing in".

Thanks for the reference. I do indeed use a Pioneer VSX-LX503. In way of clarification for the OP, I've only ever used it as a Dolby Atmos processor, and have never used its built-in amplifiers. On top of that, I use outboard DSP units (three Dayton Audio DSP-408s) for levels, polarity, crossovers, delay and EQ on all the speakers and the two subs in my 7.2.4 system.

I use a calibrated mic and the Studio Six Digital AudioTools audio measurements app on my iPads and iPhone for testing and calibration. I am pretty happy with the results. I'm lucky to have 35 years of broadcast audio production experience in my background, so getting everything to work optimally is relatively easy for me.

I do keep up with AVR reviews here at ASR and so far I haven't felt any compulsion to replace the VSX-LX503. It measures okay, and it sounds "transparent enough" for my needs and expectations. I personally think 7.2.4 is plenty adequate for my 19' X 14' X 9' high room.

Without seeing or hearing your system, it's impossible for me to advise you beyond what's already been suggested here, and that's to continue fine-tuning what you already have. If I had $3,000 to burn I'd probably spend it on acoustics treatment. (That's actually my first advice to everyone who hasn't addresses acoustics already.) After that I'd consider outboard DSP with parametric EQ like the DSP-408s or simillar and outboard amplifiers. But by all means try looking into acoustics treatment first. That's my "retired professional" advice. It's probably your biggest bang for the buck.

 

[techsamurai]

Hi I'm new to this forum and have read through a lot of posts only to have more questions than when I began.
I currently have a AWOL projector with a 120" screen. Using a Pioneer elite VSX-LX503 11.2 driving Klipsch RP-8060FA a Klipsch 12" sub a deftech supercube 4000 a deftech 9060 center and 4 Mag8R ceiling speakers.
I am not in love with my AVR and would really like to be able to drive an additional 2 speakers. I had thought about the arcam AVR20 9.2.6 but the reviews made me think twice. I watch a lot of movies 4k UHD blu ray's as well as 3D movies on bluray. I also stream movies and TV.
I could leave well enough alone but I really want good sound for my system. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

What does it mean that you're not in love? What's missing out of it and what are you comparing it to?

Define good sound. Is it better clarity in dialogue, better integration of speakers, better bass, more musical (which affects music, movies, and games)?

I'd be surprised if an extra 2 channels would make a huge difference but maybe they will

I noticed that your center channel has a built-in subwoofer. First time I've seen that.

 

[Adi777]

. I personally think 7.2.4 is plenty adequate for my 19' X 14' X 9' high room.

I have similar room - 4m x 6m, and think about 7.4.4/7.4.6/9.4.4/9.4.6.

 

[Vacceo]

My room is similar too and I'm thinking about changing electronics due to HDMI 2.1 and earc capabilities. I use KEF IQ speakers (yes, old stuff) for a 7.2.4 system, so some thoughts on what to look at:

-Is it worth going for external amps? At some point I would like to jump to KEF R series or Petlisten R speakers. Those are 4ohm, but considering I rarely listen beyond 90 db tops, is it worth going for a processor due to more powerful amps?

-RCA or XLR connections? I know XLR in some cases can be +6db, but is it honestly worth it in an environment that is not massive?

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

My room is similar too and I'm thinking about changing electronics due to HDMI 2.1 and earc capabilities. I use KEF IQ speakers (yes, old stuff) for a 7.2.4 system, so some thoughts on what to look at:

-Is it worth going for external amps? At some point I would like to jump to KEF R series or Petlisten R speakers. Those are 4ohm, but considering I rarely listen beyond 90 db tops, is it worth going for a processor due to more powerful amps?

-RCA or XLR connections? I know XLR in some cases can be +6db, but is it honestly worth it in an environment that is not massive?

RCA vs XLR:
XLR is balanced, so if your cable runs are reallllly long, then it might make a difference. Aside from that, no difference.

As to external amps, if you are going for the new R series, then in my opinion, they need good power to work well. I would recommend external amps for the KEF R series due to that. Even if you only listen at "90db", there are peaks, and if you can output 105db cleanly, then it will be really clean at 90db.

Therefore, I would recommend looking at an AVR with good preamp outputs, and to look at getting some decent external amps (hypex, etc) to power an R series system.

 

[Vacceo]

RCA vs XLR:
XLR is balanced, so if your cable runs are reallllly long, then it might make a difference. Aside from that, no difference.

As to external amps, if you are going for the new R series, then in my opinion, they need good power to work well. I would recommend external amps for the KEF R series due to that. Even if you only listen at "90db", there are peaks, and if you can output 105db cleanly, then it will be really clean at 90db.

Therefore, I would recommend looking at an AVR with good preamp outputs, and to look at getting some decent external amps (hypex, etc) to power an R series system.

Thanks for the clear recomendations, first of all. Does the voltage sent (2V vs 4V) on RCA and XLR matter? I knew the part about noise due to the balanced part and with 20 cm long cables tops, I doubt it´s remotely an issue.

On the quality class D, I pretty much assumed it. 11 channels are a lot, so transparency aside, efficiency and size are huge advantages.

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

Thanks for the clear recomendations, first of all. Does the voltage sent (2V vs 4V) on RCA and XLR matter? I knew the part about noise due to the balanced part and with 20 cm long cables tops, I doubt it´s remotely an issue.

On the quality class D, I pretty much assumed it. 11 channels are a lot, so transparency aside, efficiency and size are huge advantages.

The voltage sent is dependent on the processor / preamp, not on the connector.
For example, IIRC, the Denon X3700h, in preamp mode, sends around 4v on the RCA connectors, and I'm sure that someone has made a pathetic enough XLR output to only manage a volt.

The voltage output is important for pairing with amplifiers. If you have low-gain amplifiers which need a high input voltage to reach max output power, then you will need a preamp that can output high voltages (like the X3700h and it's 4v output). On the flip side, you could theoretically get away with a lower output voltage preamp if you have a high gain amplifier, or if you are going through some other processing in between the preamp output and your amps.

Technically, having a higher signal level on any given cable will mean that the signal-to-noise ratio will be better than if you had a lower signal level, but in most applications, and with the relatively short cable lengths in home use, it's not a huge issue (in my opinion).

 

[enricoclaudio]

If you don’t mind a receiver from 2020, the Denon X6700H is 13.2 processing and it’s on sale currently at Amazon for $2330.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B089Q25DRT/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER&psc=1