64 Audio U12t Review (IEM)

[beagleman]

Knowles BA units are anywhere in the $5-50 price range depending on model, single or duals. Figure if you're using thousands of them and buying direct from Knowles you might see that closer to $3-30.

So that can stack up quickly in a 10 BA unit, potentially $200 just for drivers. Add in shells, build, xo, packaging, marketing, and real r and d if you're developing your own smorgasbord of three letter acronyms like these guys do. $2000 isn't unreasonable.

Think what a USA assembled iPhone would cost, 5x ad much as what we have now?

So they have to focus on a premium niche to stay in business and keep jobs in the USA.

Do you really believe the drivers cost $200......................I worked in USA manufacturing, and while this is more of a niche category, I will agree with you on that, There is no way the drivers are 200 bucks.......just trust me

 

[JaMaSt]

Two things to keep in mind with IEMs in general - and 64Audio IEMs in particular.

1. Tips have a huge impact on sound. More so than EQ. If you want to get into IEMs you need to be prepared to roll tips.
2. The Custom line of IEMs are made for working musicians. Which means they have to stand up to a lot of sweat and abuse. The Universals have the same technology and quality. See the list of artist who use them, incl. Beyonce, Bon Jovi, Black Eyed Peas, etc.

64 Audio Family

Innovations that only 64 Audio offers, all designed to challenge traditional in-ear monitor designs to bring you a truly unique listening experience. We believe that when the walls between you and music come down you do your best work and live your life in the truest way.

www.64audio.com

 

[deafenears]

Do you really believe the drivers cost $200......................I worked in USA manufacturing, and while this is more of a niche category, I will agree with you on that, There is no way the drivers are 200 bucks.......just trust me

Rough guide:

https://earphonediylabs.com/shop/earphone-drivers/knowles-twfk-30017-dual-balanced-armature-driver-2pcs/

https://earphonediylabs.com/shop/earphone-drivers/2-pcs-of-knowles-ed-29689-balanced-armature-driver/

BoM is one thing, but somewhere along the line there's operating costs - R&D, marketing, sales, etc.

Good on you for knowing how much something costs, if you think you can do better and still operate at a profit, then go prove it. I'm not defending 64 Audio, I just think actions are better than words... look at JohnYang1997, there's an example.

 

[Wegi76]

@JaMaSt: Aren`t the custom ones (A12 in this case) more common among musicians? I totally agree that tips can make a difference - see my post above somewhere - but probably not as much as these two big 6db filters in Amirs EQ recommendation. (a good seal provided of course)

 

[JaMaSt]

@JaMaSt: Aren`t the custom ones (A12 in this case) more common among musicians? I totally agree that tips can make a difference - see my post above somewhere - but probably not as much as these two big 6db filters in Amirs EQ recommendation. (a good seal provided of course)

Yes. Customs. They also make an entire line of Customs from a relatively inexpensive starting price of $500.

And yes, the importance of tips, is that you should in find a good fit and seal before EQ'ing. You may find that you don't need to.

 

[sq225917]

I actually think I'm bang on with my $200 total drivers cost for a pair of 10ba, as per my example. I too work in manufacturing, with plenty of electronics costing and Chinese supply chain experience.

Sure you can buy the cheapest drivers imaginable for a lower combined cost, but for five pairs of Knowles dual units, yeh, $20 per driver on average.

 

[dc655321]

I think it takes some skill to stuff and arrange 12 drivers in the package

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

How valuable is Harman curve though when it's an in ear vs over ear? Does it matter?

What about the turbulence? Is there any effect from the playing of music on the response? And does group delay mean you are covering differences in the timing of each driver? I can't see how 12 drivers in little matchbook sounds good. I'm sure it does, but aren't maybe we missing something? ANYTHING?

 

[amirm]

How valuable is Harman curve though when it's an in ear vs over ear? Does it matter?

It is just as valuable as the curve for regular headphones.

 

[YSC]

Individual target response in bass for IEMs will differ by nature of it bypassing the pinna.

Regardless, any target response you look at will have this IEM being recessed at 3kHz.

I like IEMs, but this style’s form factor (the kind used by live performers) are never comfortable for more than a few songs, but oddly only for left ear.
View attachment 197419
In the area I circled, in my left ear every IEM I have tried of this form factor pushes up against it and actually hurts after a while (I just pushed up in it a minute ago and I still feel it).

The only in-ears I can wear are your traditional kind, like my 1More ones:

I am wondering about the 3khz because it seems both 64 audio and reputable UE reference series both followed that dip

 

[fieldcar]

But how do they sound?

I just dusted them off to check. Forgive the subjectivist term, but they're shouty. The excessive pinna gain hurts my ears at moderate volumes. I like the slow rise in sub bass, but it's not enough to mask the 2.5K peak. I far prefer my ER4XR and moondrop KATO.

HE100

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by Super* Review

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

squig.link

 

[antdroid]

some people may want to not value labor, capital equipment costs, rent/lease facility costs, utility costs, R&D costs, shipping/logistics costs, supply chain costs, warranty/customer support costs, etc, BUT I value my time and money and i'd factor that into the cost of a product if i ran a company.

 

[antdroid]

Rough guide:

https://earphonediylabs.com/shop/earphone-drivers/knowles-twfk-30017-dual-balanced-armature-driver-2pcs/

https://earphonediylabs.com/shop/earphone-drivers/2-pcs-of-knowles-ed-29689-balanced-armature-driver/

BoM is one thing, but somewhere along the line there's operating costs - R&D, marketing, sales, etc.

Good on you for knowing how much something costs, if you think you can do better and still operate at a profit, then go prove it. I'm not defending 64 Audio, I just think actions are better than words... look at JohnYang1997, there's an example.

I would be cautious about this site. I don't know if they actually sell legit or per-spec products. I've bought a DIY thing they claim are the exact same as another IEM (Beyerdynamic Xelento), but at "Diy" cost. It did not measure the same nor sound the same as the real product. It did, however, look the part. I was impressed with that and the packaging looked authentic.

 

[Tks]

Not a disaster, but at this price I expect sub 1% distortion across the entire range (no exception). Also, at this price, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't go full custom (I guess they want to keep resale options open?)

Also, IEM makers are like desktop DAC makers. They're not doing anything interesting from an engineering standpoint. Why do we still have to put up with subpar ergonomics for example. Thick stems, garbage round silicone tips that don't cost anything, and mostly garbage cables that are either tangly, or too heavy.

When Apple entered the IEM game, they instantly murdered basically every single IEM in terms of ergonomics in my view. The "stem" is integrated within the tip itself, and the tips themselves are more naturally shaped (think the difference between idiotic circular headphone ear pads, versus oval headphone ear pads).

This isn't the most expensive IEM (because in literally the last 2-3 years, we've seen pricing lunacy go through the roof for no reason, with IEM's costing thousands more than this one). We're talking IEM's that easily outdo Meze Empyrean headpones (which I thought were at the cusp of what one could charge, but is somehow SLIGHTLY justified given the craftsman ship and good ergonomic considerations). For an IEM to cost more than those, I take that to be complete nonsense. IEM's in those price ranges need to be exotic materials at minimum (so think true carbon fiber).

Lastly, can we please stop with these super low impedances? Phones and phone dongles are not weak anymore, we don't need things sensitive to this degree..

@amirm Would you care to comment on the different challenges just a little bit (maybe a separate post) testing IEM's vs Headphones. I've only seen at glance folks like Economist and others in the community talk about rigging them properly to test setups. Seems quite challenging, so thanks for the awesome review, and the kind fellow that had these shipped over. Oh btw, can you comment just a hair on the cable quality? At this price, I can't imagine NOT having some of the cost go into a proper comfy cable.

 

[frix]

Someone send amir a moondrop kato

 

[amirm]

@amirm Would you care to comment on the different challenges just a little bit (maybe a separate post) testing IEM's vs Headphones. I've only seen at glance folks like Economist and others in the community talk about rigging them properly to test setups. Seems quite challenging, so thanks for the awesome review, and the kind fellow that had these shipped over. Oh btw, can you comment just a hair on the cable quality? At this price, I can't imagine NOT having some of the cost go into a proper comfy cable.

I have developed a good technique to get a perfect fit with the right tip size. Once there, I find far less variability than headphones. See how the two channels match each other even though I have independently fit them in each ear of the measurement gear. So all in all, I find IEMs easier to test although night is young. Future ones may be harder to do.

As to the cable, it is short, ultra thin, and has a bit of memory but not much. My only issue with it was the short length and delicate nature of it.

 

[dc655321]

@Tks - fyi the stock cable is garbage. Very disappointing. I replaced it on my customs with a $40 cable from Amazon Much more supple and comfortable.

 

[nyxnyxnyx]

Not a disaster, but at this price I expect sub 1% distortion across the entire range (no exception). Also, at this price, I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't go full custom (I guess they want to keep resale options open?)

Also, IEM makers are like desktop DAC makers. They're not doing anything interesting from an engineering standpoint. Why do we still have to put up with subpar ergonomics for example. Thick stems, garbage round silicone tips that don't cost anything, and mostly garbage cables that are either tangly, or too heavy.

When Apple entered the IEM game, they instantly murdered basically every single IEM in terms of ergonomics in my view. The "stem" is integrated within the tip itself, and the tips themselves are more naturally shaped (think the difference between idiotic circular headphone ear pads, versus oval headphone ear pads).

This isn't the most expensive IEM (because in literally the last 2-3 years, we've seen pricing lunacy go through the roof for no reason, with IEM's costing thousands more than this one). We're talking IEM's that easily outdo Meze Empyrean headpones (which I thought were at the cusp of what one could charge, but is somehow SLIGHTLY justified given the craftsman ship and good ergonomic considerations). For an IEM to cost more than those, I take that to be complete nonsense. IEM's in those price ranges need to be exotic materials at minimum (so think true carbon fiber).

Lastly, can we please stop with these super low impedances? Phones and phone dongles are not weak anymore, we don't need things sensitive to this degree..

@amirm Would you care to comment on the different challenges just a little bit (maybe a separate post) testing IEM's vs Headphones. I've only seen at glance folks like Economist and others in the community talk about rigging them properly to test setups. Seems quite challenging, so thanks for the awesome review, and the kind fellow that had these shipped over. Oh btw, can you comment just a hair on the cable quality? At this price, I can't imagine NOT having some of the cost go into a proper comfy cable.

How do you define "interesting engineering"? I can agree that many products are saturated that can also be said for many other types of product in audio. If it isn't tuned to a certain target you will say it's wild and unrefined, and if it's tuned to your preferred target you will say there's nothing new. What is your expectation for something interesting but also works well?

As saturated as the IEMs market goes, 64audio still has a few unique designs to have an edge over other competitors, for example their apex module (many IEMs don't even have module or bass/treble switch).

Talking about ergonomic, I think we figured out what fits the easiest for most people a long time ago, I just don't know why certain IEMs company don't go for that. Maybe it has something to do with their design aspects. Also low impedance fits well for many sources, I don't know what are the benefits of increasing impedance over the current setting.

I think IEMs are in a good spot right now but I really hate the pricing of many "TOTL" IEMs in recent years. I also wish they would stop hyping up (overpriced) IEMs cable as if they are some sort of a mythical improvement for transducers.

 

[Presently42]

I was very impressed with instrument separation causing many moments of delight. High frequency detail was very good but at times, seemed hyper exaggerated. Not sure if this is due to EQ I applied (was less so without it) or the distortion.

When I was experimenting with the correlation between spatial effects (both soundstage and imaging) and frequency response using the HD800, I noticed a strong one between the 8 kHz region and openness - a bit similar to the effect of inverting one channel: add more energy there, and the soundstage opened; whilst removing energy there resulted in the soundstage collapsing. It seems, that @amirm has inadvertently and independently confirmed my own anecdotal findings - huzzah!

 

[mrbungle]

@Tks - fyi the stock cable is garbage. Very disappointing. I replaced it on my customs with a $40 cable from Amazon Much more supple and comfortable.

Looks like the latest batch comes with the updated cable introduced with the Duo.