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50 ohm vs 75 ohm vs 125 ohm coaxial cable

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Chrise36

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"As you can see, the objective results were utterly pointless and do not explain the sunny vs. total eclipse audible difference whatsoever. Anyone who listens without noticing a difference must have sensorineural hearing loss. " :facepalm:

Measurements of these cables are the same. Considering measurement precision small variations are normal and expected.
So to sum this up you agree that for audio applications in home environment meaning small lenghts cable impedance does not play any role and we can use normal rca cables
 

Krunok

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So to sum this up you agree that for audio applications in home environment meaning small lenghts cable impedance does not play any role and we can use normal rca cables

Exactly. In fact, app every 2 weeks there's a newcomer who just like you, instead of searching existing topics, opens an impedance cable thread asking that same question.
 

SIY

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Chrise36

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Exactly. In fact, app every 2 weeks there's a newcomer who just like you, instead of searching existing topics, opens an impedance cable thread asking that same question.
My initial question was about capacitance if there was a thread about it i did not find and i am sorry. You can always direct people to those threads if you find this annoying.
 

Wombat

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That's not something that needs measuring. This isn't analog- it either works perfectly, or it doesn't work at all. Think of hooking up a printer to your computer; if the cable is good enough, it prints your document. If it isn't, the document doesn't print. You don't get a document where the words are blurry or Shakespeare reads like Tom Robbins.

What about tubes? :facepalm:

laser-printer-with-tubes.gif
 

Wombat

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So to sum this up you agree that for audio applications in home environment meaning small lenghts cable impedance does not play any role and we can use normal rca cables

- any significant role for the commonly used 50ohm and 75ohm. Essentially none.
 

Krunok

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My initial question was about capacitance if there was a thread about it i did not find and i am sorry. You can always direct people to those threads if you find this annoying.

Forget the cable capacitance and other stuff which you don't understand, the only thing you should concentrate with modern HiFi equipment are loudspeakers/headphones.
 
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Chrise36

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Well i did understand many things these days and i am not interested in headphones that much... speakers is more interesting in my opinion as well as some of the electronics.
 
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Chrise36

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Maybe soon i will start asking about usb lol.
 
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Chrise36

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But very fun like a small treasure of audiophiles expressions and cliche
 

LTig

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Max bandwidth SPDIF can carry is 2 channels with audio bitrates of 192kHz which corresponds to a rate of 12.288 MHz. This limitation is by the standard itself- cables can carry much higher bitrates/bandwidth.
The S/PDIF data rate is 12.288 MBits/s (32 bits X 2 channels * 192000 samples/s). I'm not sure whether a channel with 12.288 MHz bandwidth is able to transfer such a data stream - the rectangular pulses would be reduced to sine waves and the eye pattern may look bad.

When I designed my DIY digital patchbay I tested the coax IOs with 44/16 (data rate = 2.816 MBit/s) and AFAIR the bandwidth was around 6 MHz. So a factor of 2 might be required for a safe transmission which means about 25 MHz for 192 kHz sample rate.

And coming back to the OP: For digital audio transmission one should always use proper cables with the specified impedance as required by the standard (75 Ohm for S/PDIF, 110 Ohm for AES/EBU). There is no reason to use other cables since proper cables are dirt cheap.

The only reason to invest in expensive cables is if the length of the cable is so long that the standard cable fails to deliver enough output voltage at the receiving side. The only factor that matters is the damping per meter at the highest transmission frequency. As a hint: I have successfully tested 44/16 with 16 m of RG59.
 

DonH56

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Note Nyquist for 12.288 Mb/s is half the bitrate or 6.144 MHz and that is the number I remember (sometimes). It is common to specify at least three times and more typically at least five times the Nyquist rate to maintain some semblance of pulse integrity. Not always possible at very high rates, but the good news a good SerDes can pull the signal out of a pretty much closed eye.

All that said I do not know what the AES (or S/PDIF) spec specifies for bandwidth -- not my field. It may not specify bandwidth explicitly, but something like bit error rate, leaving it up to the designers to figure out what they need.

A typical 50 or 75 ohm coax is good to a GHz or more, especially in short lengths. The transceivers and processing logic probably limits the bandwidth much more than the cable. And in this case the standard itself limits the bit rate.
 
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Chrise36

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The S/PDIF data rate is 12.288 MBits/s (32 bits X 2 channels * 192000 samples/s). I'm not sure whether a channel with 12.288 MHz bandwidth is able to transfer such a data stream - the rectangular pulses would be reduced to sine waves and the eye pattern may look bad.

When I designed my DIY digital patchbay I tested the coax IOs with 44/16 (data rate = 2.816 MBit/s) and AFAIR the bandwidth was around 6 MHz. So a factor of 2 might be required for a safe transmission which means about 25 MHz for 192 kHz sample rate.

And coming back to the OP: For digital audio transmission one should always use proper cables with the specified impedance as required by the standard (75 Ohm for S/PDIF, 110 Ohm for AES/EBU). There is no reason to use other cables since proper cables are dirt cheap.

The only reason to invest in expensive cables is if the length of the cable is so long that the standard cable fails to deliver enough output voltage at the receiving side. The only factor that matters is the damping per meter at the highest transmission frequency. As a hint: I have successfully tested 44/16 with 16 m of RG59.
Have you tried with 50 ohm cable?
 

Speedskater

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No they don't!!!!
For long cables perhaps, but what matters for 'normal' domestic lengths is the eyeheight. With any normal cable and a length of 10 metres or less (possibly more, never tried it), it'll work fine. All it has to do is to transfer the data
The eye pattern test measures the goodness of a digital interconnect system.
I was writing about the design of a high speed transmission line interconnect system, which then may be measured with the eye pattern test.
 

sergeauckland

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The eye pattern test measures the goodness of a digital interconnect system.
I was writing about the design of a high speed transmission line interconnect system, which then may be measured with the eye pattern test.
Apologies if I misunderstood. Indeed the maximum length possible depends on the cable being used, not just the characteristic impedance which for long cables needs to be matched to the sending and receiving ends. Signal attenuation and losses of edges ultimately limits cable length, which indeed can be seen from the eye pattern.

S
 
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Chrise36

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[
The S/PDIF data rate is 12.288 MBits/s (32 bits X 2 channels * 192000 samples/s). I'm not sure whether a channel with 12.288 MHz bandwidth is able to transfer such a data stream - the rectangular pulses would be reduced to sine waves and the eye pattern may look bad.

When I designed my DIY digital patchbay I tested the coax IOs with 44/16 (data rate = 2.816 MBit/s) and AFAIR the bandwidth was around 6 MHz. So a factor of 2 might be required for a safe transmission which means about 25 MHz for 192 kHz sample rate.

And coming back to the OP: For digital audio transmission one should always use proper cables with the specified impedance as required by the standard (75 Ohm for S/PDIF, 110 Ohm for AES/EBU). There is no reason to use other cables since proper cables are dirt cheap.

The only reason to invest in expensive cables is if the length of the cable is so long that the standard cable fails to deliver enough output voltage at the receiving side. The only factor that matters is the damping per meter at the highest transmission frequency. As a hint: I have successfully tested 44/16 with 16 m of RG59.

The specs are more tolerant about impedance:
Fortunately, for a simple binary signal, there is no need to obey the transmission
line rules anything like as strictly as for an analogue video signal.
In fact the original 1983 specification allowed up to a 2:1 mis-match of the line characteristics and this gave a
certain flexibility to "loop through" receivers, or use multiple links radiating from transmitters. This concept
was based on the theory that lossy PVC analogue audio cables would be used and it was predicted that:
• reflections in short cables were unlikely to interfere with the edges of the signal, due to the short delays
involved,
• reflections in longer cables were likely to be attenuated so much that they would not significantly interfere
with the amplitude and shape of the signal at a receiver.
In practice, however it was soon found that problems occurred with an open ended spur which happened to
have an effective length of half a wavelength at the frequency of the "one" symbol. This length is also a
quarter wavelength for the frequency of the "zero" symbol. This condition causes the maximum trouble for the
signal characteristics on any connection in parallel with the spur.
It has been found that connectors are of little consequence since their electrical length is so short that any
reflections due to mis-match are immediately cancelled out. Surprisingly, some "noisy" analogue connectors,
such as brass ¼" jack plugs, work extremely well with digital interface signals. This is because all digital
signals, even silence, are still represented by several volts of data signal and, by analogue standards, digital
signals are very tolerant of crosstalk.
3.2. Guidelines for installation
The following practical guidelines have been produced for balanced circuits intended for the AES/EBU Digital
Audio interface. They are based on experience gained from two installations by the BBC in London and from
installations by CBC, Canada
Inter Area Cabling
- Cables should have a characteristic impedance of about 110 Ω (80-150 Ω is acceptable).
 
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