.

[cjfrbw]

I refuse to blind myself just to test audio equipment.

I find Steve Guttenbergs videos entertaining and I can let it go at that because I like entertainment.

As far as objectivism is concerned, he needs to be tied to the yardarm and flogged with MIT cables.

 

[Ron Texas]

Steve needs a haircut.

 

[NorthSky]

Steve is an audio interviewer, an audiophile, a smart disciplined person with his money, an audio philosopher, yes, he is an audio entertainer like the rest of us.
So what do people here have against him?

Kal, you asked if we see any value...do you see any value, ...you? ...In that particular video.

Steve has a talent for getting under peoples' skin and this is a great example. Aside from that, is there any information/value in his brief video?

 

[garbulky]

You could have indeed. I vividly remember the first time I listened to speakers blind. It made me throw out everything I thought I knew about speakers.

Interesting. The first few times I did a level matched AB comparison I found that my $30 Behringer UCA 202 didn't sound any different from my Emotiva DC-1. But interestingly, it never actually changed my experience with the gear that I didn't like as much. Afterwards on regular listening the DC-1 still sounds so much nicer to me than the Behringer. I'm not saying the Behringer is trash, I actually like it. But the DC-1 just sounds better to me in regular usage.

I think that's where I differ from the majority here. They've done DBT tests and it's been useful for them in that it has changed the way they enjoy audio because it has "removed bias" casued by the gullible mind. I assume this has made their cheaper , previously "worse" gear sound better now that they know the bias is removed and things sound similar to their previously "better" gear.

Me, after testing, my overall experience still remains the same. It hasn't made the gear I like sound any worse and the gear I don't like doesn't sound any better because I couldn't differentiate in a test.

 

[NorthSky]

Steve G. is a fun guy, humorous, sarcastic, entertaining, balancing High end with low end, nothing less nothing more, just like it is everywhere, almost, from all them High end audio mags and the advertising dollars.

 

[garbulky]

Steve G. is a fun guy, humorous, sarcastic, entertaining, balancing High end with low end, nothing less nothing more, just like it is everywhere, almost, from all them High end audio mags and the advertising dollars.

Steve is entertaining to read, but man, he is lacking some content. I can't identify with the way he describes things, in that he barely ever really describes the sound in a way that interests me. But he also doesn't get objective either.

But he doesn't even talk about specs and features all that much. It seems like he's writing for the cnet reader that basically listens to some rinky dink pc speaker or apple earbuds. So for him if he says things like "oh boy it sounds good," followed by "I tried these $5000 headphones on my iphones headphone output and thought the sound was quite nice" is his idea of a comprehensive review.
His youtube channel though is more interesting because his personality comes through and that's quite pleasing.

 

[amirm]

Interesting. The first few times I did a level matched AB comparison I found that my $30 Behringer UCA 202 didn't sound any different from my Emotiva DC-1. But interestingly, it never actually changed my experience with the gear that I didn't like as much. Afterwards on regular listening the DC-1 still sounds so much nicer to me than the Behringer. I'm not saying the Behringer is trash, I actually like it. But the DC-1 just sounds better to me in regular usage.

So what hit your ears was the same in both cases. But in the second version, with non-audible factors included, you prefered the DC-1. Why that lesson of science doesn't sink in, is the quandary with audiophiles and the topic at hand.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Kal, you asked if we see any value...do you see any value, ...you? ...In that particular video.

Actually, no. I just had a visit with Harman and was subjected to a double-blind test assessment of three speakers . Going in, I had no idea of the identities of any of them. It was strenuous but it revealed and all three speakers were different. I cannot tell you how satisfying and useful it is to know that.

 

[NorthSky]

Actually, no. I just had a visit with Harman and was subjected to a double-blind test assessment of three speakers . Going in, I had no idea of the identities of any of them. It was strenuous but it revealed and all three speakers were different. I cannot tell you how satisfying and useful it is to know that.

This is zero surprise to me, just like all amps sound the same.

Steve is a circus man, just like all circus audio people.
Of course no two speakers sound the same, I experienced that since I was seven-years old. Did you just discover it yourself recently @ HK quarters?

About multichannel pre/pros and receivers; do they sound all the same? ...DACs, turntables, cartridges, tonearms, vinyl pressings, CD music recordings, audio cables, ...?
Of course not, in a well comparison setting.

Steve knows that, he's having fun living the audio life...don't we all?

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Did you just discover it yourself recently @ HK quarters?

Of course not. How could you think so given what I do? OTOH, there is a value in finding objective confirmation in a world of unbridled subjectivity.

 

[NorthSky]

I simply asked with a touch of light humor, knowing very well what you write, because of your double-blind test results confirmation mentioning in your quote:

... I just had a visit with Harman and was subjected to a double-blind test assessment of three speakers . Going in, I had no idea of the identities of any of them. It was strenuous but it revealed and all three speakers were different. I cannot tell you how satisfying and useful it is to know that.

 

[Thomas savage]

@amirm we need to post videos on YouTube, do a podcast

We only have to entertain, you don’t have to know anything and gross levels of self indulged ignorance are celebrated. Damn it’s perfect for me, I can entertain them with my nonsense while you slip in the odd fact. I only wish I never cut my hair, people seem to trust you if your hair is long,,, maybe you should wear a long gray wig mate

 

[JJB70]

The arguments about double blind testing go to the heart of what audio equipment is for, is it a tool to use to facilitate listening to music, or is it an ornament or status symbol?

If audio equipment is about listening to music then double blind testing is of immense value since if a $20 DAC can sound the same as audiophile alternatives costing $$$$$$$$$$s then why spend more? If in a double blind test you cannot discern a difference, or even if you can but get brain overload from the effort, then it indicates that if you just want sound quality go for the cheap option.

I fully get why people enjoy playing with expensive toys and the pleasure of ownership in having something with a bit of wow factor. I have no issue with anybody buying expensive amplifiers, DACs etc just because they wanted them, after all it should be a free world. What I do object to is reviewers, magazines and websites trying to persuade people to spend a lot more than they need to using subjective reviews full of florid language and which eschew objective measurement and refuse to test these opinions in a double blind listening test. If it's about wealth, status or gear that just looks nice then fine, if it is about sound then be honest.

And on stuff like cables and power supplies I just consider that whole subset of the industry to be a scam.

The reality is that in today's world nobody needs to spend that much to enjoy genuinely high fidelity great sound.

 

[andreasmaaan]

That said, my point is if I were blindfolded and went back in time somehow before I learned what I know now, I would honestly think they were different speakers, and I just might have blamed the speakers. This obviously isn't an ideal DBT as you'd want controlled conditions and to make one change at a time, but I think there is far more value in understanding the science and engineering involved, then learning to measure things and trusting what the results tell you. DBT could easily make a person blame something that isn't really the weakest link in a system based on what they think they hear or even based on their mood on a given day, etc... Psychoacoustics is going to always apply when you are using listening as a metric, and our brains are too easily fooled.

DBT is not supposed to remove psychoacoustics from the picture, which would be impossible and moreover pointless. Rather, DBT is supposed to remove/reduce the impact of psychology.

Moreover, DBT is most valuable not when each stimulus has a hundred uncontrolled variables (as is the case with e.g. swapping a whole piece of gear), but rather when one variable at a time is changed, e.g. by digitally modifying a stimulus to increase or decrease a particular kind of noise or distortion etc, and then testing to try to determine the point at which subjects cannot distinguish between the modified and unmodified stimuli.

 

[FrantzM]

Methink you are giving the man too much credit.
The least said about his ramblings the better ...
Signing off on this

 

[NorthSky]

A funny bunch; Steve's audio writings are superior to many others in this audio industry.
His good humor and style are an example for many in this business.
This thread's title sounds like an audio writer is on the judgement seat and the judges are . . .

Or course no two speakers and two amps and two cables and two DACs and two cartridges, ...sound the same when comparing attentively with a good set of scientific and aufiofile ears; if they would life would be extremely boring for everyone who love music, and first that'll be the day.
Audio mags and forums and reviewers and critics wouldn't exist without life being fun and varied and unique and diversified and flexible and of different audio classes and designs and ...all that jazz.

We're all happy with what we have, we hear, we see, we eat, we drive, we sleep, we live and we listen to. We love when we play, yes.

 

[Valentin R]

Actually, no. I just had a visit with Harman and was subjected to a double-blind test assessment of three speakers . Going in, I had no idea of the identities of any of them. It was strenuous but it revealed and all three speakers were different. I cannot tell you how satisfying and useful it is to know that.

Kal

what 3 speakers did you get a chance to Hear
Revel F228be Magico A3 Paradigm Persona Be
B&W 804 D3 ?

 

[NorthSky]

Steve needs a haircut.

You too ... noticed that.

 

[Ron Texas]

You too ... noticed that.

I have my homeless person disguise...

 

[JJB70]

There is a famous adage that those who love the law and sausages should never look at how either is made. Seeing as how my current role is an industry lobbyist influencing the regulatory process (boo!) I can vouch for the truth of that statement with respect to the law. And my grandfather was a butcher so I know how true it is in the case of sausages. I suspect it is much more true for high end audio gear.