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432hz

MRC01

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...... Temperature is a biggie; brass and strings go different directions with temperature. ...
When I saw Ax, Ma and Stoltzman playing at Obama's inauguration, I told my wife: "There's no way they're playing that live - it must be pre-recorded." She said "Why?" I said "Because it's freezing outside which will make the strings sharp and the clarinet flat, and the difference is far too much for them to compensate." And yes, it was pre-recorded. Sometimes even the best musicians have to fake it. ;)
 

scott wurcer

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Pragmatically speaking, adjusting from 438 to 442 isn't a big deal. But I couldn't play in tune at A=435 or lower. Maybe some professionals can.

Thanks for all this "tech" info, you just reminded me of a perk we got years ago for donating to the fledgling Mass MOCA, a private recital by Paula Robeson part of which involved playfully playing along with a huge sound sculpture.
 

Robin L

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Interesting thing on Wiki about concert pitch - note the section on pitch inflation and how far off the various tuning forks were.

I would gander to say this is what Robin was leaning to - there really is no thing called a "perfect pitch"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch
That's one example, there are many others. Jascha Heifetz would always play a few cents over the orchestra when playing concerti, as to have his sound be more in front of the orchestra. When Heifetz plays Bach, he always sounds out of tune to me. He's using the same sorts of intervals used in romantic era music, which just ain't right. And as noted previously, earlier tuning systems were almost invariably lower than modern pitch. Essentially, pitch is all over the place.

Tho nowadays with things like digital frequency counters and oscilloscopes there's a more quantifiable way to determine a pitch center. But again the harmonic structure of the instrument or system can lead to perception that is higher or lower than the fundamental.
Joseph Spencer, my old boss who spent a lot of time in recording studios, pointed out that digital tuners revolutionized music, pop music specifically. And digital tuners can be adjusted for higher or lower pitches. My older tuner could be tuned to A = 445 or 435.

And think of all those years we listen to LPs that were mastered with dodgy pitch, in several directions.
 

MRC01

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... And as noted previously, earlier tuning systems were almost invariably lower than modern pitch. Essentially, pitch is all over the place. ...
Early tuning systems (before equal temperament) can be spine tingling since we're not accustomed to the purity of the chords and intervals. Especially when the musicians (especially singers) use the ancient style with minimal vibrato. Incidentally, the increasing use of vibrato seems to be roughly coincident with the adoption of equal temperament. Perhaps the vibrato helps mask the slightly out-of-tune intervals.
 

Robin L

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Early tuning systems (before equal temperament) can be spine tingling since we're not accustomed to the purity of the chords and intervals. Especially when the musicians (especially singers) use the ancient style with minimal vibrato. Incidentally, the increasing use of vibrato seems to be roughly coincident with the adoption of equal temperament. Perhaps the vibrato helps mask the slightly out-of-tune intervals.
If you listen to music recorded before sound on film, there's often minimal vibrato. The Capet Quartet is a good example. While equal temperament might be one cause for increased wobble, I suspect the high levels of wow and flutter once there was sound on film is another.
 
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When mastering a song I recently released I attempted to lower the tuning frequency to 432, however it completely changed the type of song it was. Maybe if I began with the frequency in mind it would turn out the way I imagine. There's an article about this how this frequency works that I found interesting.

https://manifestnow.home.blog/2019/11/12/miracle-tone/
 

MRC01

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If you listen to music recorded before sound on film, there's often minimal vibrato. The Capet Quartet is a good example. While equal temperament might be one cause for increased wobble, I suspect the high levels of wow and flutter once there was sound on film is another.
When I suggest that increased vibrato seems coincident with the adoption of equal temperament, I don't mean to imply that that slightly off 5ths and 3rds have beat frequencies we hear as vibrato. But that is possible. Consider A at 440. In ET, C will be 440*1.189=523.16. This is a minor 3rd, which should be 6:5 = 1.2:1, so the C should be 440*1.2=528. That's off by 5Hz which beats 5 times per second which is both audible and dissonant. [Incidentally, we are so used to this dissonance we don't notice until we listen to ancient music and hear the perfect 3rd in just temperament and experience the purity of what it should sound like.] Somebody could hear that beating and think it's a fast vibrato. However, what I really meant was that the musician hears this dissonance and either (A) bends his pitch to widen the interval and raise the C so it sounds pure, or adds (perhaps subconsciously) his own vibrato to mask the beats or dissonance.
 

Robin L

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When I suggest that increased vibrato seems coincident with the adoption of equal temperament, I don't mean to imply that that slightly off 5ths and 3rds have beat frequencies we hear as vibrato. But that is possible. Consider A at 440. In ET, C will be 440*1.189=523.16. This is a minor 3rd, which should be 6:5 = 1.2:1, so the C should be 440*1.2=528. That's off by 5Hz which beats 5 times per second which is both audible and dissonant. [Incidentally, we are so used to this dissonance we don't notice until we listen to ancient music and hear the perfect 3rd in just temperament and experience the purity of what it should sound like.] Somebody could hear that beating and think it's a fast vibrato. However, what I really meant was that the musician hears this dissonance and either (A) bends his pitch to widen the interval and raise the C so it sounds pure, or adds (perhaps subconsciously) his own vibrato to mask the beats or dissonance.
There's a "sentimental" affect to the sort of vibrato of which we speak. Again, I think it's the wow & flutter heard via sound on film that creates this sound as a model. Interesting how the most recently discovered distortion becomes another effect for music. People got used to it, helping to fully open the doors to pure atonality. The Guarneri Quartet sound consisted of a lot of this sort of vibrato, giving off the sense that their music happened further back in time than the recording date of record.
 

Sergei

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I perceive the positive difference in emotional impact between the A432 or A440 renditions of the music in some of YouTube videos exploring the subject. Yet others sound pretty same to me in this regard. And then there are some that start sounding incoherent when shifted down.

I guess one of the reasons would be that the shift of tonal balance toward the lower frequencies could be beneficial for music compositions originally intended to calm a listener down. I can just as easily imagine that shifting down music pieces originally intended to energize could be counterproductive.

Another hypothesis I'd like to hear your take on is whether the listener's own natural, relaxed voice tuning might have something to do with the effects some people report.

110 Hz is approximately in the middle of the range of male voice fundamental frequencies. Notes built off the A440 may then sound more consonant to the man's own voice.

For women, the middle of the range of the voice fundamental frequency is close to 216 Hz. Notes built off A432 may then sound a lot more consonant to a lady's own voice.

Naturally, we are talking about ranges. If a lady happens to have a voice with fundamental at 220 Hz, then A440 may be strongly preferred. Similarly, a man may have the voice fundamental at 108 Hz, and thus slightly prefer A432. Perhaps A440 is a compromise derived from natural statistical distribution of musicians preferences at the time when it was chosen?

Yet another factor is that grown up men's voice fundamental frequencies are rising with age, especially rapidly after age 55, whereas women's are decreasing after menopause, shifting to approximately 15 Hz lower by age 70. This phenomenon might explain why some people suddenly reach "enlightenment" regarding the "proper" tuning only at a certain age.
 

Julf

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I perceive the positive difference in emotional impact between the A432 or A440 renditions of the music in some of YouTube videos exploring the subject. Yet others sound pretty same to me in this regard. And then there are some that start sounding incoherent when shifted down.

Sounds like your pitch shifting program affects more than just pitch.
 

Julf

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When mastering a song I recently released I attempted to lower the tuning frequency to 432, however it completely changed the type of song it was. Maybe if I began with the frequency in mind it would turn out the way I imagine. There's an article about this how this frequency works that I found interesting.

https://manifestnow.home.blog/2019/11/12/m
iracle-tone/

"I have learned these frequencies have been known to effect one’s chakras. Frequencies around 440 Hz effect the thinking chakra of the mind and the frequencies around 432 Hz effect the heart chakra, knows as the feeling chakra. Thus the 432 Hz frequency is said to improve one’s connection to one’s spirituality in life. Additionally, this tone of life has been known to bring abundance in life and financial wealth, positivity, and healing benefits to its listeners.

Connecting to such a higher power, based on this information, is tapping into the pure essence of life, living it in endless potential possibility, as it is supposed to be lived."

How did you actually lower the frequency? Somehow I think you might be on the wrong forum....
 

MRC01

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That's some pretty colorful BS. As an experienced amateur musician and afficionado of ancient music, I can't say that the pitch of A matters to me at all. I don't have perfect/absolute pitch (very few people do, even musicians). So I can't even tell by listening what pitch was used, but I can tell if the intonation is off in relative terms. As mentioned earlier, many instruments are designed for a specific pitch and are only in tune with themselves at or near that pitch. So the tuning should be set to whatever the instruments being played were designed for.
 

Robin L

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" . . . Connecting to such a higher power, based on this information, is tapping into the pure essence of life, living it in endless potential possibility, as it is supposed to be lived. . ."

 

Sergei

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Sounds like your pitch shifting program affects more than just pitch.

No, I don't modify the tracks myself that way anymore. I experimented in the past with proper pitch shifting, so yes, I'm aware that tempo ought to be kept intact in order to compare "pitches to pitches".

There are documents detailing professional musicians past disagreements about the proper tuning base. Which makes me think that the tuning base is somehow important.

Yet ratio of 440 to 432 is so close to 1.0 that it creating a noticeable effect all by itself doesn't appear plausible. There ought to be some kind of resonance phenomenon, when a small change in frequency leads to disproportionate change in some other observed value.

A resonance requires a resonance frequency. 2nd or 4th sub-harmonics of frequencies in the range around 432 ... 440 could be such resonance candidates, as they establish the consonance bases in lower octaves.

The range of such subharmonics happens to coincide with the range of most common fundamental frequencies of relaxed human voices. Could be just a coincidence of course. But is it?
 

Julf

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There are documents detailing professional musicians past disagreements about the proper tuning base. Which makes me think that the tuning base is somehow important.

Until the 1800s, there was no universal pitch standard. Everyone used their own, local one. There was a point where there was a "pitch race" - everyone kept tuning higher and higher to stand out with a brighter sound (sort of an early version of the loudness wars).
 

Blumlein 88

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No, I don't modify the tracks myself that way anymore. I experimented in the past with proper pitch shifting, so yes, I'm aware that tempo ought to be kept intact in order to compare "pitches to pitches".

There are documents detailing professional musicians past disagreements about the proper tuning base. Which makes me think that the tuning base is somehow important.

Yet ratio of 440 to 432 is so close to 1.0 that it creating a noticeable effect all by itself doesn't appear plausible. There ought to be some kind of resonance phenomenon, when a small change in frequency leads to disproportionate change in some other observed value.

A resonance requires a resonance frequency. 2nd or 4th sub-harmonics of frequencies in the range around 432 ... 440 could be such resonance candidates, as they establish the consonance bases in lower octaves.

The range of such subharmonics happens to coincide with the range of most common fundamental frequencies of relaxed human voices. Could be just a coincidence of course. But is it?
I've done some recording. And I've run across several musicians who would notice 440 hz vs 432 hz in about 5 seconds. Un-erringly. How do I know? I've had some software glitches which resulted in 48 khz recordings playing back at 44.1 khz. That is almost exactly the same ratio as 440 vs 432 hz.
 

DonH56

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Musicians can readily notice tuning that is off by maybe 10 cents or so (100 cents is the range from one note to the next). A is the tuning note for most orchestras and we hear it over and over for many years so, "perfect pitch" or not, you become pretty attuned to it over time. For A = 440 Hz, the note a half-step below (Ab) is at about 415 Hz, which means 432 Hz is about halfway there. That is a huge pitch error. Now, if everyone tunes to it, relatively it's OK, but I remember when we (orchestra) had to tune up a hair to 442 Hz to match some vintage instruments and it really threw us off. I figured it wouldn't matter that much, not like I have perfect pitch, but in practice it sounded "off" and we all kept trying to pull it down to 440 Hz just out of (long) habit. Tuning a quarter-step off, blah.

FWIWFM - Don
 

MRC01

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... Yet ratio of 440 to 432 is so close to 1.0 that it creating a noticeable effect all by itself doesn't appear plausible....
The difference may seem small, but many instruments designed for A=440 are not in tune with themselves at 432.

... For A = 440 Hz, the note a half-step below (Ab) is at about 415 Hz, which means 432 Hz is about halfway there. That is a huge pitch error. Now, if everyone tunes to it, relatively it's OK, but I remember when we (orchestra) had to tune up a hair to 442 Hz to match some vintage instruments and it really threw us off. I figured it wouldn't matter that much, not like I have perfect pitch, but in practice it sounded "off" and we all kept trying to pull it down to 440 Hz just out of (long) habit. Tuning a quarter-step off, blah. ...
Most modern instruments are designed for A=440. The biggest problem I've had with tuning to something other than this (say outside the range of 438 to 442) is that intonation suffers overall. For example everyone can set their A to 444 but they'll be out of tune on other notes. Then someone in the group says, "let's re-tune our A", and they find to their surprise the A still sounds fine. So they keep playing and the intonation remains off and everyone wonders why.
 

DonH56

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The difference may seem small, but many instruments designed for A=440 are not in tune with themselves at 432.

Most modern instruments are designed for A=440. The biggest problem I've had with tuning to something other than this (say outside the range of 438 to 442) is that intonation suffers overall. For example everyone can set their A to 444 but they'll be out of tune on other notes. Then someone in the group says, "let's re-tune our A", and they find to their surprise the A still sounds fine. So they keep playing and the intonation remains off and everyone wonders why.

Besides "hearing" the wrong pitch and trying to subconsciously adjust, I believe that to be a significant part of the problem. Slide lengths (for some instruments), the bell flares, position of holes, etc. are fixed and that means the note frequencies no longer line up properly for the scale. My piccolo trumpet can be configured in one of three keys and has different slides and bells for each to help intonation. Fretless stringed instruments may be OK but the rest of us have it tough.
 

MRC01

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... Fretless stringed instruments may be OK but the rest of us have it tough.
Amen to that. It's hard enough to play a flute in tune with itself, since even under ideal conditions the tone hole positions are a compromise. Don't make it harder by making me tune it to a pitch it wasn't even designed to play.
 
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