432hz

[beefkabob]

I worked with a man who, during the 1960's/1970's, tuned keyboards for a living. He studied tuning systems of the Baroque. Equal temperament is a compromise, equally out of tune everywhere. But there are Baroque tunings that are perfect in the home key and become progressively discordant the further from the home key. This was common practice in the 1700s. Some composers used this effect deliberately.

Ain't no such thing as "Perfect Pitch".

It sounds like their tuning is b-roke.

Violent femmes are in a different tuning. Primus too. I think. But still it seems cohesive.

 

[Robin L]

It sounds like their tuning is b-roke.

Violent femmes are in a different tuning. Primus too. I think. But still it seems cohesive.

Old, baroque and in the way.
But equal temperament is even more broke.

 

[Eirikur]

Since we're digressing a bit into equal temperament, look at this comparison between a normal guitar, and a "true" temperament one, by two of my favorite music tubers (Adam Neely + Paul Davids)

 

[ajawamnet]

One more time.

There is no such thing as perfect pitch.

. . .with the possible exception of throwing a banjo [viola, accordion . . .] into a trash can without hitting the rim.

All pitch is relative, "Well Tempered" does not mean "equal" temperament [which is wrong anyway], Western Diatonic/Chromatic scales are not the only game in town.

And A= 432 is pure bullshit.

Well, tell this kid:

And I'd have to question this story:
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/acquiring-perfect-pitch-may-be-possible-some-adults

This seems fairly convincing:

 

[Robin L]

Well, tell this kid:

And I'd have to question this story:
https://news.uchicago.edu/story/acquiring-perfect-pitch-may-be-possible-some-adults

This seems fairly convincing:

There is perfect "RELATIVE" pitch. Within serious limits. Sorry, but the world is not in the same tuning. Even the "West" is not in the same tuning. So the kid is good at calling out diatonic/chromatic pitch. But there is nothing "perfect"about pitch. The western standard is not universal, thus no "perfect" pitch.

Ever.

 

[ajawamnet]

There is perfect "RELATIVE" pitch. Within serious limits. Sorry, but the world is not in the same tuning. Even the "West" is not in the same tuning. So the kid is good at calling out diatonic/chromatic pitch. But there is nothing "perfect"about pitch. The western standard is not universal, thus no "perfect" pitch.

Ever.

I think you're misconstruing the term "perfect pitch" as being the physical attributes of the sound waves as compared to the term used to describe people - typically musicians - that (from what all studies indicate developed at an early age) have the uncanny ability to call out some pretty funky stuff - like that kid and the tone clusters.

When I was a bench tech I could set the cassette motor's speed to within a few tens of hertz by just hearing the old ATL (I think not MRL which is waht I used in studios on 1/4-2" machines) test tape narrator stating "3.15 kilohertz for wow, flutter, and speed check". But that was just relative pitch.

I can typically tell when a song I've played in coverbands or one of my own productions is grossly off, but as to getting into cents flat or sharp, no way. And that study that states some adults may be able to acquire perfect pitch shows that it's a follow up to one that mentions "retuning" perfect pitch candidates over a 45 minute period.

As to tuning system, I spent a lot of time with various microtonal systems. One of the best guys for this is Monzo...
http://www.tonalsoft.com/pub/company/founders.aspx
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/encyclopedia.aspx

Really read his pages if you want to get into microtonal and other tunings - check out all the stuff he has published here:
http://www.tonalsoft.com/enc/m/monzo-writings.aspx

 

[RayDunzl]

 

[scott wurcer]

The western standard is not universal, thus no "perfect" pitch.

Maybe I'm confused but I thought perfect pitch simply meant someone could walk up to a variable oscillator and tune it to exactly 440 by ear only. You are certainly right, the concept of someone being born with 440 as the only tuning you can stand to listen to is absurd (I have an acquaintance with that opinion).

 

[Robin L]

Maybe I'm confused but I thought perfect pitch simply meant someone could walk up to a variable oscillator and tune it to exactly 440 by ear only. You are certainly right, the concept of someone being born with 440 as the only tuning you can stand to listen to is absurd (I have an acquaintance with that opinion).

One more time, all pitch is relative. That's all there is to it, no pitch series is "perfect". Either that or all pitch series are "perfect". But the notion of "the right pitch" is inherently wrong.

 

[scott wurcer]

One more time, all pitch is relative. That's all there is to it, no pitch series is "perfect". Either that or all pitch series are "perfect". But the notion of "the right pitch" is inherently wrong.

I'm not a musician I think that's what I meant, simply the ability to recreate a pitch exactly by ear only whatever it is.

 

[ajawamnet]

Maybe I'm confused but I thought perfect pitch simply meant someone could walk up to a variable oscillator and tune it to exactly 440 by ear only. You are certainly right, the concept of someone being born with 440 as the only tuning you can stand to listen to is absurd (I have an acquaintance with that opinion).

If you watch that second Beato vid I posted a link to, he explains the definition - as held by conservatories - as to what absolute/perfect pitch is.

- instant recognition of the pitch - as he states it's like a non color blind person seeing a color and saying "Red" or whatever.
I've worked with musicians like that.
- no hunting on your instrument to match what someone else has played. You just go right to it.
- being able to name all the notes in a chord played on any instrument.
- naming the key of a piece of music
- be able to recall a piece of music in the right key days after hearing it.
- naming the pitch of everyday sounds such as car horns. Our keyboard player had that and hated going into malls and stores that had klaxons for things - klaxons that were just slightly off of a 440 pitch center.

When I worked with the Pittsburgh Symphony doing sound, one of the reed players had a foot operated tone bar - similar to a vibraphone bar - that everyone used to get middle A. Note that vibraphones, and things like glockenspiels, tubular bells are not really considered "tuned" instruments as much as they are "pitched" instruments, which is now the preferred naming convention.

Go to 4:25 to see what Beato mentions about the definition of absolute/perfect pitch . As to one being able to acquire this - his argument that if it were really possible, many of the conservatories in the 300 or 400 years of western music would be teaching it.

 

[Ron Party]

I suppose some people also possess the same skill in their visual acuity, e.g., color frequency / temperature?

 

[MRC01]

So, I just stumbled onto this concept of 432hz v. 440hz. I've no idea. Is it legit? Are there any valid arguments supporting this concept? Has this been properly vetted?
...

Another aspect of this is that the ideal pitch depends on the instrument. I'll describe this for a flute because that's an instrument I play, but the concept applies to other instruments too. For a flute to be in tune, notes that require the full length of the tube (call these the long-tube notes) must be in tune with those that have most of the tone holes open (call these the short-tube notes). When you adjust the tuning, you are sliding the head-joint in and out which changes the distance between the blowhole and the first (shortest-tube) key hole. But the distance between the shortest and longest keyhole remains fixed. Thus, sliding the head-joint in and out changes the pitch of short-tube notes (like C#) twice as much as long-tube notes (like D).

As a player, the way to ensure you're in tune is to hold all keys down (all tone-holes closed, except the last one on some flutes) which normally plays a low C. By over-blowing the note, you can make this same fingering play several different notes in higher octaves: C, G, C, E, G. Play each of these notes by over-blowing it, then play it with the proper fingering, which opens up most of the key-holes. Swapping back and forth playing this same note in these 2 different ways, the pitch will change. Adjust the head-joint until the pitch of these notes is the same, when over-blown and when properly fingered. This works because adjusting the head-joint changes the pitch of the properly fingered notes twice as much as it affects the overblown notes. After doing this, the flute is in tune with itself. Of course this will give an A that might be 440, or 438, or 442, or something different depending on the air temperature of the room. The point is, the flute can only be in tune with itself at a single tuning pitch. Once you have it tuned for this pitch, you can't simply adjust it sharper or flatter, because doing so affects the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes, making the flute out of tune with itself.

Now the twist: you can actually play at a different pitch than this while keeping in tune. That's because as a player you can adjust your embouchure to bend the pitch of each individual note, and you can bend the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes. So if the conductor wants to tune A=442, you have to bend the notes accordingly, and individually. Sounds harder than it really is, because with experience you do this naturally by listening to those around you. Which you have to all the time anyway, since no flute is perfectly in tune with itself even when ideally perfectly tuned as above. The position of the key-holes is a compromise and different instruments use different layouts like "Cooper scale", "Bennett" scale, etc. that make different trade-offs. Some scales are better designed than others, but none are perfect so some notes always tend sharp or flat and you have to adjust them with your lips.

So the ideal "A" tuning is not an arbitrary decision, but the one that the instrument was designed to play. If they want it to play at a different A, they have to change the physical dimensions of the instrument. In the distant past, lower As like 432, 435, and others were common, but it was inconsistent which as you can imagine was hard for instrument makers and players. A=440 became the standard in the 20th century. Modern flutes are designed for A=440 and period/vintage/ancient flutes are designed for lower As. If we want to play a modern flute at A=432 or whatever, it can't be done by simply pulling the head-joint out further because that lowers the pitch of the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes, so it requires quite a bit of effort from the player.

 

[BDWoody]

Another aspect of this is that the ideal pitch depends on the instrument. I'll describe this for a flute because that's an instrument I play, but the concept applies to other instruments too. For a flute to be in tune, notes that require the full length of the tube (call these the long-tube notes) must be in tune with those that have most of the tone holes open (call these the short-tube notes). When you adjust the tuning, you are sliding the head-joint in and out which changes the distance between the blowhole and the first (shortest-tube) key hole. But the distance between the shortest and longest keyhole remains fixed. Thus, sliding the head-joint in and out changes the pitch of short-tube notes (like C#) twice as much as long-tube notes (like D).

As a player, the way to ensure you're in tune is to hold all keys down (all tone-holes closed, except the last one on some flutes) which normally plays a low C. By over-blowing the note, you can make this same fingering play several different notes in higher octaves: C, G, C, E, G. Play each of these notes by over-blowing it, then play it with the proper fingering, which opens up most of the key-holes. Swapping back and forth playing this same note in these 2 different ways, the pitch will change. Adjust the head-joint until the pitch of these notes is the same, when over-blown and when properly fingered. This works because adjusting the head-joint changes the pitch of the properly fingered notes twice as much as it affects the overblown notes. After doing this, the flute is in tune with itself. Of course this will give an A that might be 440, or 438, or 442, or something different depending on the air temperature of the room. The point is, the flute can only be in tune with itself at a single tuning pitch. Once you have it tuned for this pitch, you can't simply adjust it sharper or flatter, because doing so affects the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes, making the flute out of tune with itself.

Now the twist: you can actually play at a different pitch than this while keeping in tune. That's because as a player you can adjust your embouchure to bend the pitch of each individual note, and you can bend the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes. So if the conductor wants to tune A=442, you have to bend the notes accordingly, and individually. Sounds harder than it really is, because with experience you do this naturally by listening to those around you. Which you have to all the time anyway, since no flute is perfectly in tune with itself even when ideally perfectly tuned as above. The position of the key-holes is a compromise and different instruments use different layouts like "Cooper scale", "Bennett" scale, etc. that make different trade-offs. Some scales are better designed than others, but none are perfect so some notes always tend sharp or flat and you have to adjust them with your lips.

So the ideal "A" tuning is not an arbitrary decision, but the one that the instrument was designed to play. If they want it to play at a different A, they have to change the physical dimensions of the instrument. In the distant past, lower As like 432, 435, and others were common, but it was inconsistent which as you can imagine was hard for instrument makers and players. A=440 became the standard in the 20th century. Modern flutes are designed for A=440 and period/vintage/ancient flutes are designed for lower As. If we want to play a modern flute at A=432 or whatever, it can't be done by simply pulling the head-joint out further because that lowers the pitch of the short-tube notes more than the long-tube notes, so it requires quite a bit of effort from the player.

Thank you for that explanation...very interesting.
I'm more lurking in this thread but that was excellent.

 

[Berwhale]

It's suddenly dawned on me where Apollo 440's name originates. Confirmed by Wikipedia... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_440

 

[ajawamnet]

Interesting thing on Wiki about concert pitch - note the section on pitch inflation and how far off the various tuning forks were.

I would gander to say this is what Robin was leaning to - there really is no thing called a "perfect pitch"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concert_pitch

Tho nowadays with things like digital frequency counters and oscilloscopes there's a more quantifiable way to determine a pitch center. But again the harmonic structure of the instrument or system can lead to perception that is higher or lower than the fundamental.

 

[DonH56]

Flute and woodwinds in general are more problematic for tuning as it is harder to "bend" the pitch as @MRC01 described so well. Strings can adjust their finger placement to change the pitch, and brass players can adjust our embouchure ("lips") as well as move slides. Trombones are just one big slide, while trumpets and french horns have various moveable slides to help us stay in tune, some with rings or triggers to adjust them on the fly.

Tuning needs to be adjusted constantly to suit the chord structure as well as things like changes in temperature and humidity. To make a chord sound good the third needs to be flat and fifth high in a major chord; for a C chord, the E needs to be flat and the G sharp to get the overtone series to line up nicely. Temperature is a biggie; brass and strings go different directions with temperature. But humidity and temperature are both first-order parameters in the speed of sound and thus pitch. Pressure is another; I have to tweak things a little differently at home in the mountains vs. at sea level. The better a group plays in tune, the better (richer, fuller, bigger) the sound of the ensemble.

There are trumpets that have slides marked for A=442 and A=440 (nominal) but 2 Hz is not a huge shift (but is very noticeable if you're used to 440 Hz tuning). Other factors can cause that much of a shift. 432 Hz is a rather significant change.

It is actually often harder to play with a piano or other equal-tempered instrument as you can't adjust for chords and such. Pianos typically use multiple strings per key and "detune" the other strings to help with tuning plus enrich the sound. Pianos also tend to have their octaves expanded, going a little further "out" in pitch at the extremes of the keyboard. Again, makes it sound better, but harder to to stay in tune with it. My wife plays piano (keyboard, organ) and we have done a fair number of duets, so it is something I've been dealing with "forever", like most musicians. Same thing happens when a piano or keyboard is added to an orchestra or band.

Relative pitch, the ability to hear and stay in tune, is a requirement for s musician (and hopefully a singer). But after a couple of decades of playing a Bb horn, switching to C messed me up badly when I first did it (about 20 years ago now, time flies) because my brain "knew" the pitch for the note on the page and it was a step lower than what came out the bell. Now I have a bunch of different trumpets in different keys so I can mess myself up all kinds of ways.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[ajawamnet]

Flute and woodwinds in general are more problematic for tuning as it is harder to "bend" the pitch as @MRC01 described so well. Strings can adjust their finger placement to change the pitch, and brass players can adjust our embouchure ("lips") as well as move slides. Trombones are just one big slide, while trumpets and french horns have various moveable slides to help us stay in tune, some with rings or triggers to adjust them on the fly.

Tuning needs to be adjusted constantly to suit the chord structure as well as things like changes in temperature and humidity. To make a chord sound good the third needs to be flat and fifth high in a major chord; for a C chord, the E needs to be flat and the G sharp to get the overtone series to line up nicely. Temperature is a biggie; brass and strings go different directions with temperature. But humidity and temperature are both first-order parameters in the speed of sound and thus pitch. Pressure is another; I have to tweak things a little differently at home in the mountains vs. at sea level. The better a group plays in tune, the better (richer, fuller, bigger) the sound of the ensemble.

There are trumpets that have slides marked for A=442 and A=440 (nominal) but 2 Hz is not a huge shift (but is very noticeable if you're used to 440 Hz tuning). Other factors can cause that much of a shift. 432 Hz is a rather significant change.

It is actually often harder to play with a piano or other equal-tempered instrument as you can't adjust for chords and such. Pianos typically use multiple strings per key and "detune" the other strings to help with tuning plus enrich the sound. Pianos also tend to have their octaves expanded, going a little further "out" in pitch at the extremes of the keyboard. Again, makes it sound better, but harder to to stay in tune with it. My wife plays piano (keyboard, organ) and we have done a fair number of duets, so it is something I've been dealing with "forever", like most musicians. Same thing happens when a piano or keyboard is added to an orchestra or band.

Relative pitch, the ability to hear and stay in tune, is a requirement for s musician (and hopefully a singer). But after a couple of decades of playing a Bb horn, switching to C messed me up badly when I first did it (about 20 years ago now, time flies) because my brain "knew" the pitch for the note on the page and it was a step lower than what came out the bell. Now I have a bunch of different trumpets in different keys so I can mess myself up all kinds of ways.

FWIWFM - Don

Yea - play a duo (as a bassist) with a guy using a capo on acoustic... good lord. Why I play fretless. Each song in a different capo position is a whole new realm.

Piano tuning sucks - I've done it since we were in a prog band in the mid 70's and lugged a console piano (as well as a B3 and Mellotron) around to gigs .

This from something on Hoffman's forum that I posted:

I recall doing sound for Shostakovitch for an outdoor gig with the son (Maxim) and grandson (Dmitri Maximovich). Was at Point State Park in Pittsburgh - sometime in the 1980's The Pittsburgh Symphony had a Symphony at the Point series that we (CZ Sound) were contracted to provide sound.

I recall the son sat on the piano bench sort of like Tori Amos does and just slammed at it. The piano tuner was blind - told blind jokes the entire time he was tuning... Used one tuning fork at concert pitch A and did it all the old fashioned way (ain't no using a strobe tuner if you're blind).

So at rehearsal I'm standing stage right with the tuner guy - as soon as the kid starts playing, the tuner freaked and mentioned - "He's gonna kill that piano - I'm going to have to voice the hammers!" I mentioned that I thought it was an old wives tale that someone like a kid banging on a piano could damage it. "nope - not the way he plays - he'll a least knock it out of tune before the end of the performance - and as hard as he hits - it sounds like crap..."

So they we are, that late afternoon, with him pulling the entire action out of this concert grand, and it sitting in his lap - going at it with his little prickly voicing tool. He told me that most rentals they get have fairly hard hammers since they're usually used for recitals and the students - being a bit nervous - usually play a lot lighter.

So he put it back together, leveled the action and fine tuned the hammers. What a difference that made.

 

[RayDunzl]

For a flute to be in tune

I enjoyed reading your explanation, but it left me with a question:

Why does a flute need adjustable tuning at all if there is only one setting where it is in tune with itself?

 

[MRC01]

I enjoyed reading your explanation, but it left me with a question:
Why does a flute need adjustable tuning at all if there is only one setting where it is in tune with itself?

The speed of sound varies with temperature, and the temperature of the air & flute is not consistent. It's warmer at the embouchure plate and cools as you go toward the tail. This temperature difference varies from person to person and from day to day for the same person. And different people blow it differently across the octaves, so the ideal headjoint position is different for every person. Also you may want to tune it a little sharp or flat to match the rest of the group, and adjust for the flute being slightly out of tune with itself as you play.

Pragmatically speaking, adjusting from 438 to 442 isn't a big deal. But I couldn't play in tune at A=435 or lower. Maybe some professionals can.