4 new Schiit preamps

[andreasmaaan]

I always forget where the cutoff is; do the PS hum and 3rd harmonics shown reach into the audible level?

Extremely unlikely. First of all, you’d need to be listening at 100+ dB for the harmonics to even cross above 0dB. Then taking into account they are 2nd and third harmonic, in terms of masking thresholds, they’d need to be in the range of -60dB to even be heard with a single test tone as the fundamental. So nowhere near audible IMO.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I always forget where the cutoff is; do the PS hum and 3rd harmonics shown reach into the audible level?

To be honest I'm impressed. It seems like Schiit is stepping up and saying "Here are the exact specs for the different versions; feel free to make your own, informed choice."

Theyre likely inaudible, given the measurements captured on behalf of Shiit. That's not my point...

My point is why, given the opportunity to choose comparably equipped amps, would anyone actually choose the measurably noisier one?

I get the whole Greta van Fleet, gather round the campfire at Coachella/Burning Man, and get your tube groove on. But it's nothing more than a refreshed form of marketing BS that goes back to the 70s when it might have meant something. Whether it still means something is now within the realm of measurement, verification, and comprehension.

Regardless of all that, the single noise floor measures provided are good. Really good in fact. For both products.

I'm just waiting for more before getting excited. Why? Three factors:

1. Shiit has a good, but not unimpeachable reputation. Some of their products in the past have measured up short by amir on these pages. So exercising a bit of due diligence is fair;

2. We're being presented with a glimpse of products... and being shown measurements that the manufacturer wants to present. There are other indices of performance to consider, so perhaps we should wait until these are provided and independently verified; and

3. These are new products. A lot can happen QC wise when a product transitions to series production.

Lest this be interpreted as negativism, let's remember what this forum seems to be about. Let's also keep in mind the number of times that manufacturers' claims been been disproven by amir (or JA at Stereophile et al).

 

[Daverz]

Seems like Schiit may have taken criticism of how their gear measures to heart, including complaints about hum from the original Freya.

 

[gvl]

Tubes are hot peeps. Can't deny it.

 

[thunderchicken]

As a Schiit customer, I'm super excited about these measurements, their "thunderdome" approach to the new products, and the next round of products coming out. This is just the first big announcement they have planned for this year

 

[GrimSurfer]

As a Schiit customer, I'm super excited about these measurements, their "thunderdome" approach to the new products, and the next round of products coming out. This is just the first big announcement they have planned for this year

Maybe you could buy one right away and have it shipped to amir for testing?

 

[thunderchicken]

Maybe you could buy one right away and have it shipped to amir for testing?

The thought crossed my mind, but I'm not in the market for gear this second. That might change in the next few months though!

 

[debunker]

These numbers look good, but looking over the AP test report, I have to ask:

What effect--if any--does using a lower input voltage have on the performance? It's my understanding that amir puts 2V into the amp and adjusts it for unity gain to get approximately 2V out for his SINAD/THD+N numbers. If I'm reading the report right, Schiit went with 1V for their THD+N numbers in their "passive" measurement, and then dropped the input down to 550 mV for positive gain (X1, X4) measurements. And for reasons I don't fully understand they went with 450 mV for the passive gain FFT plot.

So is all this just one person's convention vs another and it all comes out in the wash, or are we not comparing apples to apples here? And yeah, regardless I suspect the real world performance will be exceptional and kudos to Schiit for publishing measurements.

Cheers!

 

[Dana reed]

There is an old saying in engineering: "if you measure it, it will get better." Looks like they are doing that and with it, designing much better gear. Those measurements are excellent. Hopefully someone will buy and send them to me for verification.

They do also have the report up for their newly released integrated amp

https://www.schiit.com/public/upload/PDF/Schiit Amp APx555 Standard Test Suite_ Ragnarok 2.pdf

rated at 24W into 32 Ohms. The graph they showed on another forum shows >25 V into 32 Ohms before clipping starts. Could be a nice beast for running something really insensitive like the HE6.

 

[Daverz]

Don't these spectrum plots show that they have paid attention to grounding, or would it not show up there? The mains noise shown in the spectrum was pretty bad for some of their older gear.

 

[amirm]

Don't these spectrum plots show that they have paid attention to grounding, or would it not show up there? The mains noise shown in the spectrum was pretty bad for some of their older gear.

In short, no. They could be using special samples, prototypes or else floating grounds, etc. If they had pictures of the units and conditions of the test, we would know more.

The real arbiter is getting a customer unit to test.

 

[Aive]

Sorry to revive an old thread - I’ve just identified hum through my Freya+. If I disconnect mains earth (as a test only) the hum goes away. Taking a look at the PCB, and verified by resistance measurement, signal ground and mains earth are bonded/share a common fill plane. There’s no signal ground lift at all. I might get adventurous with the dremel and look into splitting the ground plane into signal/DC ground and mains earth and connect the two through a resistor/cap ground lift.

 

[Feanor]

Tubes are hot peeps. Can't deny it.

Yes, but feeling around the top of the Freya + you'll discover that the hot spot when in Tube mode isn't the tubes but the power supply. Note that in Passive mode the unit is completely cool; in Buffered mode it's slightly warm.

 

[Feanor]

Freya+ tube (gain 4, +12 dB) adds 2nd and 3rd harmonics, and some PS hum and its 2nd harmonic at 120Hz too.
Interesting to see that it adds less harmonics than the solid state Freya S at gain 4.

View attachment 26868

Uhmm ... that doesn't look like what I'm seeing. From Amir's 2nd Freya S review looks like the Freya S is about 10 dB lower in the 2nd harmonic. Both are commentably low in higher order harmonics ....
.

 

[Matias]

Uhmm ... that doesn't look like what I'm seeing. From Amir's 2nd Freya S review looks like the Freya S is about 10 dB lower in the 2nd harmonic. Both are commentably low in higher order harmonics ....
.
View attachment 86081

I was comparing Schiit's measurements against themselves: Freya S -100 dB harmonics, Freya S+ -105 and -115 dB harmonics, as you can see from the first post.

 

[Feanor]

I was comparing Schiit's measurements against themselves: Freya S -100 dB harmonics, Freya S+ -105 and -115 dB harmonics, as you can see from the first post.

Okey dokey.

However it's done, tube equipments special characteristics are due to distortions of some sort. I'd like to know, for example, how tube equipment's "holographic" effect is achieved. Personally I find the effect, (as in the case of Freya +), to be sometimes pleasing, at least as often not.

 

[Helicopter]

Okey dokey.

However it's done, tube equipments special characteristics are due to distortions of some sort. I'd like to know, for example, how tube equipment's "holographic" effect is achieved. Personally I find the effect, (as in the case of Freya +), to be sometimes pleasing, at least as often not.

I agree. If I could only have one setup, it would be SS, but I enjoy tubes a lot and I think the noise and distortion they impart are more pleasing than other noise and distortion.

Part of it is the order of the harmonics which can make them like harmony in music, and part is harmonics and microphonics that sound like reverberation, which can change the sense of space in what you hear. There is probably more to it than that.

 

[TheInquiring]

Dear experts,
Would you kindly help me to find a resource for Pre-Amplifiers similar to Amplifier SINAD list provided by @Matias, please?
In particular, I wonder how would the C53 Pre-Amplifier from McIntosh or Serene Pre-Amplifier from HoloAudio look like against PASS Labs XP-22 or much more affordable Topping Pre90 or Freya + from Schiit...


 

[Wes]

LOL.

It's funny to have the option of buying solid state or tube versions of the same model preamp. You'd think that the manufacturer would simply sell the one whose performance vs cost vs profit model was the best.

I'm not belittling vacuum tubes. I suppose there might be some applications where they work really well (such as in EMP hardened circuitry), but the proof is in the measurement... and not just when brand new but after a few hundred hours operating time.

Unless the measurements indicated otherwise, this sounds like more hipster marketing. Perhaps it will spread to the point where a dealer will ask if I'd like square wheels and tires with my next new car.

Nothing would surprise me at this point...

some people like tubes - they are being catered to

car makers often give people a choice of higher performance vs. more comfort, not to mention colors, etc.

I say this as an anti-hipster too.

 

[Matias]

Dear experts,
Would you kindly help me to find a resource for Pre-Amplifiers similar to Amplifier SINAD list provided by @Matias, please?
In particular, I wonder how would the C53 Pre-Amplifier from McIntosh or Serene Pre-Amplifier from HoloAudio look like against PASS Labs XP-22 or much more affordable Topping Pre90 or Freya + from Schiit...


This one is a pretty good one to consider, with or without its expansion depending on your needs.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/topping-pre90-review-preamplifier.18283/