3e Audio TPA3251 TPA3255 Finished Amplifier with PFFB is coming!

[Ropeburn]

Very interesting, thank you @3eaudio for posting this.

It confirms what has always been technically obvious: there is no practical difference. Distortion is virtually identical within the useful (clean) power range. The differences are so tiny, nobody can hear it.

Even the difference between 100 and 120W of clean power is negligible. If you're running your amplifier in that range, you chose the wrong model and should get a beefier one. The other way around, if 120W are easily enough for your listening needs, then so are 100.

Let's not forget that a lot of the music we're listening to has run through literal dozens of chained NE5532: they've been a staple in mixers and effects and outboard gear, including pricey pieces, for decades. One or two more in our listening chains can't make a meaningful difference.

@Guddu I would guess most manufacturers don't publish these measurements precisely because the difference is utterly negligible. They'd lose one of their big advertising points.

 

[SMen]

Very interesting, thank you @3eaudio for posting this.

It confirms what has always been technically obvious: there is no practical difference. Distortion is virtually identical within the useful (clean) power range. The differences are so tiny, nobody can hear it.

Even the difference between 100 and 120W of clean power is negligible. If you're running your amplifier in that range, you chose the wrong model and should get a beefier one. The other way around, if 120W are easily enough for your listening needs, then so are 100.

Let's not forget that a lot of the music we're listening to has run through literal dozens of chained NE5532: they've been a staple in mixers and effects and outboard gear, including pricey pieces, for decades. One or two more in our listening chains can't make a meaningful difference.

@Guddu I would guess most manufacturers don't publish these measurements precisely because the difference is utterly negligible. They'd lose one of their big advertising points.

I'm going to slightly disagree ... but there is a nuance ...

If manufacturers post data like this (by the way this is a total agreement with you, no nuance) ... they show that they have tested the op amp options they have suggested, and the user can interpret from these measurements as they see fit ... and choose a sensible one ...

but equally (as I found out with Fosi V3 monos) ... the experience I had suggests to me that Fosi did not measure before suggesting the op amp swaps they suggest... but that is for the Fosi V3 mono user impressions thread when I get round to it! And this, by the way, is via a lovely pair of NE5532's working wonderfully in my exceptional Michael Fidler MMPro! I could not get my NE5532's back into the Fosi monos fast enough ...

So my nuance is, if it ain't negligible then the company did not measure ... (or should have) ... and they are indeed just hopping on the advertising or add on selling bandwagon. ... hoping to start a trend here ... a far better bandwagon ...

and post edit nuance nuance!! I can happily try the useless pair of Muses02's I got with the monos in these and satisfy my bias that I won't hear a difference, because they have measured them in the circuit.

Seriously well done @3eaudio !!

 

[Ropeburn]

I'm going to slightly disagree ... but there is a nuance ...

If manufacturers post data like this (by the way this is a total agreement with you, no nuance) ... they show that they have tested the op amp options they have suggested, and the user can interpret from these measurements as they see fit ... and choose a sensible one ...

but equally (as I found out with Fosi V3 monos) ... the experience I had suggests to me that Fosi did not measure before suggesting the op amp swaps they suggest... but that is for the Fosi V3 mono user impressions thread when I get round to it! And this, by the way, is via a lovely pair of NE5532's working wonderfully in my exceptional Michael Fidler MMPro! I could not get my NE5532's back into the Fosi monos fast enough ...

So my nuance is, if it ain't negligible then the company did not measure ... (or should have) ... and they are indeed just hopping on the advertising or add on selling bandwagon. ... hoping to start a trend here ... a far better bandwagon ...

and post edit nuance nuance!! I can happily try the useless pair of Muses02's I got with the monos in these and satisfy my bias that I won't hear a difference, because they have measured them in the circuit.

Seriously well done @3eaudio !!

That's actually a good point I hadn't considered. If a company publishes these measurements, we know they did them. If they don't, we can only assume (as I did) they did them anyway but just don't publish. What if they just didn't at all?

All the more reason to applaud 3e. In this case we know for sure they're taking proper care during the design process. This level of transparency is commendable.

 

[Guddu]

That's actually a good point I hadn't considered. If a company publishes these measurements, we know they did them. If they don't, we can only assume (as I did) they did them anyway but just don't publish. What if they just didn't at all?

I'm going to slightly disagree ... but there is a nuance ...
...........
omitted
...........
and post edit nuance nuance!! I can happily try the useless pair of Muses02's I got with the monos in these and satisfy my bias that I won't hear a difference, because they have measured them in the circuit.

I am hurt now, may be not many people understand the ultimate musical bliss with different opamps providing different sound like
- Balanced & well rouded, vs
- Neutral & balanced with preserving authentic essense of sound, vs
- More neutral with rich harmonics providing pleasant listening experience which return essense of music with wider and deeper soundstage along with sense of nobility in sound that leaves a lasting impression, vs
- Warm sound signature and tube like characteristics providing soft and pleasant sound with endless enjoyment, vs
- Dynamics and detailed prividing clear perception of subtle nuances in music

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcasm ends <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

 

[Ropeburn]

I am hurt now, may be not many people understand the ultimate musical bliss with different opamps providing different sound like
- Balanced & well rouded, vs
- Neutral & balanced with preserving authentic essense of sound, vs
more neutral with rich harmonics providing pleasant listening experience which return essense of music with wider and deeper soundstage along with sense of nobility in sound that leaves a lasting impression, vs
- Warm sound signature and tube like characteristics providing soft and pleasant sound with endless enjoyment, vs
- Dynamics and detailed prividing clear perception of subtle nuances in music

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcasm ends <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

We all know my ears are rusty iron instead of golden, that's why I don't hear anything, and wouldn't make these ignorant comments like "it all sounds the same lol". Needless to say, my poor man system just isn't resolving enough either! God forbid my cheap Hypex amplifier uses ne5532 on the input buffer! It just can't sound good! Omg I need to practice SMD soldering now for upgrading...

 

[SMen]

I am hurt now, ...

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sarcasm ends <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

We all know my ears are rusty iron instead of golden, ...

I can assure you my imminent post on the Fosi User impressions will be delicately nuanced, neutral where possible, but with all the depth and warmth I can muster!
The thing is ... I listen to records more often than not! So my hearing must be pretty wonky ... I'm so impressed with 3e I'm hoping I'll close my TPA325x chapter with this one...

Maybe then save up for a Hypex

 

[Emiyanez]

I don't want to be rude but I have a hard time to see a good reason for companies to share data about components that have no impact in performance.

This was a great exercise (thanks @3eaudio ) and a piece of information that many will not like. But does it make sense to share data showing that opamps all sound the same for each and every amp implementation in the market? Manufacturers could also share information about the performance depending on the colour of the case so users can paint their amps to their liking.

 

[MCH]

1. some op-amp sweep test on 1st A5 sample
2. Opa16xx are almost at the same level
3. NE5532(P) has less headroom when output swing close to rail supply
4. MUSES02 close to NE5532 and clipping a little bit faster
5. LM4562 very close to OPA16xx even it is a little bit older

FYI @SMen @daniboun @Guddu
View attachment 394312

@3eaudio or anyone, would you comment the difference in max power? Thanks.

 

[SMen]

1. some op-amp sweep test on 1st A5 sample
2. Opa16xx are almost at the same level
3. NE5532(P) has less headroom when output swing close to rail supply
4. MUSES02 close to NE5532 and clipping a little bit faster
5. LM4562 very close to OPA16xx even it is a little bit older

FYI @SMen @daniboun @Guddu
View attachment 394312

As I think about this some more, the thing we hear most is changes in frequency response. I think @Guddu did such measurements from his listening position. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...v3-mono-user-impressions-owners-thread.54043/

REW (I think I need this explained)? This sure would would be interesting - or something similar.

 

[SMen]

I don't want to be rude but I have a hard time to see a good reason for companies to share data about components that have no impact in performance.

This was a great exercise (thanks @3eaudio ) and a piece of information that many will not like. But does it make sense to share data showing that opamps all sound the same for each and every amp implementation in the market? Manufacturers could also share information about the performance depending on the colour of the case so users can paint their amps to their liking.

Colour of the case is just not a 'like for like' description. I might happily pay extra for a colour ... I think this is relevant only in terms of what is obvious and not needing scientific verification.

Otherwise it would be a question of bias as to whether you saw 'blue' vs 'red'. I suppose you might be colour blind (but that is not me being rude - it is just a logical step in the argument ... just a 'Spock' moment if you watch Star Trek).

Manufacturers should test op amps they suggest could be swapped ... and publishing this is good discipline.

Then it is up to the users to decide on impact on performance.

Post edit: I'm not sure you are following the point here! I am sorry I posted a reply! "Stirring an unnecessary pot" maybe. Companies are pushing (selling) products that may have no impact on performance... without testing! Jeez! It is getting ridiculous what is happening ... Fosi, Geschelli ...

 

[Guddu]

I don't want to be rude but I have a hard time to see a good reason for companies to share data about components that have no impact in performance.

This was a great exercise (thanks @3eaudio ) and a piece of information that many will not like. But does it make sense to share data showing that opamps all sound the same for each and every amp implementation in the market? Manufacturers could also share information about the performance depending on the colour of the case so users can paint their amps to their liking.

You are not wrong, but manufacturers are claiming that different opamps can provide different sound qualities with their amplifiers/DACs without any data.
3e here at least provided distortion levels vs power with different opamps, which is meaningful information. opamps should not be changing frequency response, so personally I won't be too keen to look at those measurements but nothing wrong if someone can do that as well.
Nothing wrong in picking up your personal choice like case type, colour or opamp which should have nothing to do with performance, but it is supposed to be personal choice than advertised BS.

P.E. I would have avoid responding if noticed SMen's post already.

 

[Ropeburn]

You are not wrong, but manufacturers are claiming that different opamps can provide different sound qualities with their amplifiers/DACs without any data.
3e here at least provided distortion levels vs power with different opamps, which is meaningful information. opamps should not be changing frequency response, so personally I won't be keep to look at those measurements but nothing wrong if someone can do that as well.
Nothing wrong in picking up your personal choice like case type, colour or opamp which should have anything to do with performance, but it is supposed to be personal choice than advertised BS.

Yes seriously. There's nothing wrong with personal taste and subjective preferences, we're all humans after all and as such heavily and easily biased. But we should be aware of that, which I'm afraid not too many people are.

Let's get to the very source, quite literally. Just earlier today I tore apart my old Waldorf Pulse, a 1997 monophonic synthesizer, quite well regarded back then and used by many famous names, just like Oliver Fröhning I bought this exact unit from long ago. Producer of Dune, a happy hardcore project that won several golden records in Germany. From a general musicians' perspective, it's a late 90s, conveniently Midi controlled 3-oscillator analog synthesiser with complete features and great sound, big bass, and then some.

Lo and behold, no 5532 in sight. But instead, TL064 and TL074! Omg, those age old super basic opamps, used for oscillators, the very sound generating source of the whole instrument, and for sound shaping filters too! Not to mention various super basic integrated transistor arrays costing literal cents, and a lot more super cheap and run off the mill electronic parts that would give every "true audiophile" goosebumps, and not in a good way. All this in an instrument by a reputable company, "made in Germany", how could they? Technical point: the whole device offers an SNR ratio in excess of -90dB. Certainly good enough for any musician, and still qualifies as "not bad at all" 25 years later today.

What I'm saying is: this "basic shit" is what we're all listening to right now, in all our favourite music, all the time. All these bog standard parts are what literally made our music, or amplified it until it finally reached the recording process.

From that perspective, the whole "opamp rolling" craze is nothing but utterly ridiculous.

 

[Emiyanez]

You are not wrong, but manufacturers are claiming that different opamps can provide different sound qualities with their amplifiers/DACs without any data.
3e here at least provided distortion levels vs power with different opamps, which is meaningful information. opamps should not be changing frequency response, so personally I won't be too keen to look at those measurements but nothing wrong if someone can do that as well.
Nothing wrong in picking up your personal choice like case type, colour or opamp which should have nothing to do with performance, but it is supposed to be personal choice than advertised BS.

P.E. I would have avoid responding if noticed SMen's post already.

I totally get your point. If a given manufacturer claim that opamps switching improves performance, they should provide measurements to support the claim. However, I would rather shift the focus of the designs to more relevant features.

It's clear that companies are out there to sale their products and that the potential market is a key aspect when designing them. The industry has moved towards cheap and fast-paced consumables with minimal (not audible) incremental gains in performance. Brands launching similar suboptimal implementations that are replaced within a few months. Maybe it's just me but I honestly do not fully get the "mono" obsession, the opamp switching designs or the DACs with selectable dual chips (Sabre or AKM) as main selling points.

I think that @3eaudio is doing a really good job with this one. It looks like a durable unit and I hope that both power and performance were on the center of the design. If they could include an internal PSU to additionally differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd, I think that it could be a really sensible choice.

 

[surroundman]

It's clear that companies are out there to sale their products and that the potential market is a key aspect when designing them. The industry has moved towards cheap and fast-paced consumables with minimal (not audible) incremental gains in performance. Brands launching similar suboptimal implementations that are replaced within a few months. Maybe it's just me but I honestly do not fully get the "mono" obsession, the opamp switching designs or the DACs with selectable dual chips (Sabre or AKM) as main selling points.

I think that @3eaudio is doing a really good job with this one. It looks like a durable unit and I hope that both power and performance were on the center of the design. If they could include an internal PSU to additionally differentiate themselves from the rest of the crowd, I think that it could be a really sensible choice.

I believe it is a high-pass filter that is what needs to be implemented at this point in order to create a product that is different from the competition.
Internal PSU units do already exist, like some by Aiyima and SMSL (despite the lack of PFFB). While there may be some appeal for such units, I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who will not consider buying one as a desktop user due to the larger size. It could be a funny experiment to create a poll thread on which of the two features (internal PSU vs high-pass filter) matters more to forum users.
Still, I am very happy that 3e Audio is making progress. Having auto on/off feature is VERY important to me. The one and only thing that is missing for me is a sub-out with high-pass filter. That kind of a product will be the one I'll buy next. Time will tell when this is going to happen.

 

[Inertiaman]

I believe it is a high-pass filter that is what needs to be implemented at this point in order to create a product that is different from the competition.
Internal PSU units do already exist, like some by Aiyima and SMSL (despite the lack of PFFB). While there may be some appeal for such units, I am pretty sure that I am not the only one who will not consider buying one as a desktop user due to the larger size. It could be a funny experiment to create a poll thread on which of the two features (internal PSU vs high-pass filter) matters more to forum users.
Still, I am very happy that 3e Audio is making progress. Having auto on/off feature is VERY important to me. The one and only thing that is missing for me is a sub-out with high-pass filter. That kind of a product will be the one I'll buy next. Time will tell when this is going to happen.

3e clearly stated the objective of this product is a pure amplifier. The prospect of adding pre-amp features was debated ad nauseum (and largely rejected) in the first few pages of this thread. Hell, even the volume knob is seen as a step too far by some purists. No need to begin such tangents again.

A Wiim Ultra + this 3e A5 or A7 amp will provide the functionality you seek at SOTA performance levels (lacking only a balanced output on the Ultra, if that is a care-about). 12V trigger output, fully configurable high-pass filtering, equally configurable sub-out, and even 10-band independent L/R PEQ.

An affordable, stereo, TPA325x-based, SOTA performance amp that is well-engineered and bulletproof reliable is still, oddly, difficult to come by. There is solid evidence that 3e are capable of designing such a product. The unknown/risk, IMHO, is whether 3e can consistently produce, stock and ship them.

Note the originating post of this thread stating that the product would launch in 3Q24. Subsequent 3e statements on July 2 saying that pricing and other details will be provided by late July or early Aug. Well here we are, nearly early October, and still no such details, no product launch. We have a photo of a prototype - a highly functional one, no doubt - but we sure don't have a product launch.

I'm skeptical the A5 or A7 will ship to consumers before the end of 2024, but I would LOVE to be proven wrong. I'll be first in line for pre-orders if/when they can reach that point.

 

[Totemis]

I hope this nice project (an A7 for me) will be available for christmas 2024 !
The spec seem to be excellent, the A5 design prototype is smart...(good idea a led for clip... blue, orange?)
Don't forget the metal rocker switch on/off in front, a good volume knob is important, a trigger and a fuse for the alim, special think for a good heat dissipation... please...
Tech is important but as we say, the devil is in the detail.

 

[3eaudio]

thanks for all your comments amigos.
want to share here is that, we are not same level as others company like Aiyima,Fosi and Topping,but we are more engineering lead and would like to make something better based on TPA32xx amplifier that the PFFB is keep optimiezd.

 

[badie]

What about cooling - how about your thermal design?

Posted pics don´t show that clearly.

 

[harkpabst]

a good volume knob is important

A good volume knob bypass is what's really important for a power amplifier ...

 

[phoenixsong]

@3eaudio , will any of the amplifiers make it for the 11.11 sale?