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3e audio A7/A7 Mono Amplifier Review

Rate this amplifier:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 10 3.6%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 73 26.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 191 68.7%

  • Total voters
    278
EPDR is a fictional number that assumes a class B rail-to-rail amp. That is a fictional device but the calculation is a decently representative worst case scenario for class AB amps as they are basically class B at high power.

Class D amps don’t have EPDR at all. At high phase angles they have power supply pumping. Think of it like regenerative braking in an electric vehicle. When the output transistor is on it bridges the supply to the load and doesn’t care which way the current flows. If you have enough power supply capacitance then the power being fed back by the load can be stored and used again.

The problem with class D is when power supply pumping causes the power rail voltages to increase. Too high of a rail voltage can damage the amp. Also, if the power rail varies too much then the amp needs ample power supply rejection so it isn’t fed back into the amp as distortion. In addition to the obvious efficiency gains, many class D amps use switching power supplies because they can regulate the voltage both upwards and downwards while traditional linear PSUs only can increase the voltage which doesn’t counteract pumping.

Long story short - for Class D amps like the 3e A7 you can look at the speaker impedance and ignore EPDR.
Thank you, @TurtlePaul, the following is for consideration....
  • Class D amps for regenerators? by Paul McGowan (old but even to now, though less so, still relevant)
  • Well-designed ClassD amplifiers use advanced modulation techniques and robust FB loops to maintain a stable LC filter characteristics, despite variable loudspeaker impedances/phase, to mitigate the issues that might arise with filter-dependent classD implementations.
  • The performance of the LC filter is sensitive to the connected speaker's impedance/EPDR. A very low or highly reactive load (low EPDR) can cause variations in the filter's frequency response, especially at higher frequencies, and increase (Phase) distortion/s.
  • As mentioned, the ability to handle low EPDR is linked to the robustness of the PS/PF. That is it needs to deliver the necessary current (V/I in sync/PF) into low impedances without voltage sag or premature protection circuit activation, without Pumping/Voltage increase, and without V/I not in Sync occuring.
  • Even though classD is efficient, driving an amplifier into a very low EPDR load can cause the output transistors to overheat or draw excessive current, triggering protection circuitry or potentially causing damage if the protection is inadequate.
  • EPDR metric is primarily used to understand the maximum instantaneous current and heat stress a loudspeaker might place on an amplifier, particularly important for class A/AB designs (as noted/indicated) that dissipate more heat linearly. While classD is more efficient, the underlying current delivery challenges remain for any amplifier when faced with extremely low resistance points in a speaker's impedance curve. This implys all aspects of the setup need to be considered.
  • For very low EPDR, the 3eA7/mono/SMPS (52V/9A) measure indicates/suggests no issue/susceptablety with 2R Loads although perhaps not the 3eA7se (although a 10A SMPS may help/assist). As mentioned, a modern/high-quality class D amplifier, engineered to handle difficult loads and is less susceptible to EPDR issues than a class AB amplifier of comparable Power rating, although the immunity is not universal across all classD models, and poorly designed units, even with FB, can still face problems.
 
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True story, I blew out a BMR woofer. ( PA
were great about service.)
I have not tried to contact Dennis for a long time, and wonder if he is still active. If he is, my question for him is whether I should upgrade the woofer. Mine was the one he was using back in 2018:

If I remember right he has seen upgraded it to a new model. I don't think I could hear a difference either way but if the new one has better spec, I would want to use it.

1767187092726.png
 
Thank you, @TurtlePaul, the following is for consideration....
Not sure about him, may be may be not lol...
  • The performance of the LC filter is sensitive to the connected speaker's impedance/EPDR. A very low or highly reactive load (low EPDR) can cause variations in the filter's frequency response, especially at higher frequencies, and increase (Phase) distortion/s
Not sure what your point is on this, seems like general statement? For analysis, I wouldn't use EPDR, "E" is as we know, "equivalent" in terms of output devices heat dissipation only and it really doesn't apply to class D amps such as the e 3 A7. So, to analyze/assess the effects on the filters, just use the actual values directly and not bother with some equivalent values that don't apply here.
  • As mentioned, the ability to handle low EPDR is linked to the robustness of the PS/PF. That is it needs to deliver the necessary current (V/I in sync/PF) into low impedances without voltage sag or premature protection circuit activation, without Pumping/Voltage increase, and without V/I not in Sync occuring.

Not really, as explained in many posts on the topic, EPDR was developed to help consider the effects of reactive loads on the increased heat dissipation in the outage devices that could result in thermal damages and/or stability issues in class AB/B amps. Even then, it is more about the amplifier design, than the power supplies, low EPDR does not mean higher current, current is still a function of voltage and the real part of the impedance. Ohm's law still applies!

Quick ref to Wiki:

Ohm's law​

An AC supply applying a voltage V
{\displaystyle V}
, across a load Z
{\displaystyle Z}
, driving a current I
{\displaystyle I}

Main article: Ohm's law
The meaning of electrical impedance can be understood by substituting it into Ohm's law.<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance#cite_note-15"><span>[</span>15<span>]</span></a><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_impedance#cite_note-HH1-16"><span>[</span>16<span>]</span></a> Assuming a two-terminal circuit element with impedance Z
{\displaystyle Z}
is driven by a sinusoidal voltage or current as above, there holds

V=IZ=I|Z|ejarg⁡(Z)
{\displaystyle \ V=IZ=I|Z|e^{j\arg(Z)}}

The magnitude of the impedance |Z|
{\displaystyle |Z|}
acts just like resistance, giving the drop in voltage amplitude across an impedance Z
{\displaystyle Z}
for a given current I
{\displaystyle I}
. The phase factor tells us that the current lags the voltage by a phase θ=arg⁡(Z)
{\displaystyle \theta =\arg(Z)}
(i.e., in the time domain, the current signal is shifted θ2πT
{\textstyle {\frac {\theta }{2\pi }}T}
later with respect to the voltage signal).

Just as impedance extends Ohm's law to cover AC circuits, other results from DC circuit analysis, such as voltage division, current division, Thévenin's theorem and Norton's theorem, can also be extended to AC circuits by replacing resistance with impedance.

  • Even though classD is efficient, driving an amplifier into a very low EPDR load can cause the output transistors to overheat or draw excessive current, triggering protection circuitry or potentially causing damage if the protection is inadequate.

That is true, so no argument edit: I missed that you were referring to class D, thought you were on class AB/B amps, so no, that’s not true either, as others mentioned, this EPDR, an equivalency thing, doesn’t apply to class D amps as in this case you can't apply the equivalency any more.

  • EPDR metric is primarily used to understand the maximum instantaneous current and heat stress a loudspeaker might place on an amplifier, particularly important for class A/AB designs (as noted/indicated) that dissipate more heat linearly. While classD is more efficient, the underlying current delivery challenges remain for any amplifier when faced with extremely low resistance points in a speaker's impedance curve. This implys all aspects of the setup need to be considered.

I guess true as long as it is clear that it is about the heat, not inflated current by using EPDR that is, as someone else put it, fictitious (I would add, just sort of..), current delivered should still be calculated using the actual impedance, not the artificially deflated EPDR value.

  • For very low EPDR, the 3eA7/mono/SMPS (52V/9A) measure indicates/suggests no issue/susceptablety with 2R Loads although perhaps not the 3eA7se (although a 10A SMPS may help/assist). As mentioned, a modern/high-quality class D amplifier, engineered to handle difficult loads and is less susceptible to EPDR issues than a class AB amplifier of comparable Power rating, although the immunity is not universal across all classD models, and poorly designed units, even with FB, can still face problems.

I would add/emphasize that as already mentioned, the 5 A PS is practically adequate for the rated output of the 3 e A7. IMO, a 10 PS is really for someone who for whatever reasons has to need to push the amp to near its limit all day long, in such cases, they would be better off getting something like a McIntosh, Passlab or similar power amps that rated their output closer to the so called "continuous" rating, i.e. continuous in almost literal sense.

Above are just food for thought kind of comments, not meant to contradict yours at all.:)
 
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I have not tried to contact Dennis for a long time, and wonder if he is still active. If he is, my question for him is whether I should upgrade the woofer. Mine was the one he was using back in 2018:

If I remember right he has seen upgraded it to a new model. I don't think I could hear a difference either way but if the new one has better spec, I would want to use it.

View attachment 500934
No, absolutely not, bad idea.
Do not ever swap the older Scan Speak for the now used SB Acoustics driver. It's a different driver with completely different properties. It would require a new crossover to function properly and to be correctly voiced.
 
No, absolutely not, bad idea.
Do not ever swap the older Scan Speak for the now used SB Acoustics driver. It's a different driver with completely different properties. It would require a new crossover to function properly and to be correctly voiced.
True, the crossover would need to be reworked in order to use the new driver, but the original driver is still available to purchase.
 
No, absolutely not, bad idea.
Do not ever swap the older Scan Speak for the now used SB Acoustics driver. It's a different driver with completely different properties. It would require a new crossover to function properly and to be correctly voiced.
Thanks, I thought he switched to an updated Scan Speak if it is a different animal altogether than yes crossover will have to be modified.
 
You have a very interesting mix of of comparisons to make with these A7 mono amps! Parasound, Buckeye 500w, and then inefficient vs efficient speakers BMR/Kef.

Looking forward to your impressions and perceptions of power / drive etc.
I can do the Eigentakt amp too as it is still here, but I/we had previously done AB between it and the buckeyeamp NC502MP so we already know they didn't sound different at all. In a week or two, I will try to do a proper AB, level matched, hopefully to within 0.5 dB the A7 Mono and the NC502MP using a relatively cheap AB switch.

1767193288992.png


After using the amps for most of yesterday, I can say the following:

- No concern with heat, I like to use external fan but in this I wouldn't bother, the amps ran cool, hours after listening with volume at about -10 to -16, miniDSP HTx
- Felt the sound signature lean on a little warm vs the buckeyeamp, but it might have to do with the slightly lower gain, 23 db vs 25.5 dB, so I increased the gain on the HTx by 2.5 dB trying to restore the balance between the BMR and the two subwoofers.
- In reality, I think they sound the same, the little perceived warmth most likely meant nothing as it was even a AB comparison, and not exactly level matched.
- auto sensing seems to work within less than 1 second, but it wasn't instantaneously, still I see no need to have the trigger thing for my use.
- The 48 V 5 A PS is physically smaller than the Fosi Mono I just bought a few weeks ago, and that one is quite a bit smaller than another 48 V 5 A PS I bought also from Fosi about a year ago. So it looks like manufacturers are downsizing, wonder why, may be efficiency has gotten better so they may as well make them smaller and lighter to save on shipping costs?
- Update: I think the brick that came with my second Fosi V3 stereo amp is not gaN type, I can see no other reason it would be so much bigger than the one that came with A7 Mono and the V3 Mono. What confused me was, the two have the exact same model number, JYH23Z-4800500-BF


1767366246556.jpeg


So far I see no reason to keep the buckeyeamp, would likely sell it or the VTV Eigentakt amp in a month or so and keep the A7 Mono amps. 140 W is more than enough for what I need so there is no point to keep the other two 200/300 W class D amps.
 
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I have not tried to contact Dennis for a long time, and wonder if he is still active. If he is, my question for him is whether I should upgrade the woofer. Mine was the one he was using back in 2018:

If I remember right he has seen upgraded it to a new model. I don't think I could hear a difference either way but if the new one has better spec, I would want to use it.

View attachment 500934
Dennis is aging and alive and still active. That thread on AVS you can go to and get a good answer (although you'll have to battle the idiots that clutter the discussion with self indulgent nonsense. )

Although I doubt there is a big difference, it might be worth the upgrade.
 
Thank you, @TurtlePaul, the following is for consideration....
  • Even though classD is efficient, driving an amplifier into a very low EPDR load can cause the output transistors to overheat or draw excessive current, triggering protection circuitry or potentially causing damage if the protection is inadequate.
  • EPDR metric is primarily used to understand the maximum instantaneous current and heat stress a loudspeaker might place on an amplifier, particularly important for class A/AB designs (as noted/indicated) that dissipate more heat linearly. While classD is more efficient, the underlying current delivery challenges remain for any amplifier when faced with extremely low resistance points in a speaker's impedance curve. This implys all aspects of the setup need to be considered.
These two bullets are not correct and shows a lack of understanding of class B/AB EPDR calculations.

Look at the 4 ohm and 2 ohm reactive load tests for a Class B amp. Note that the +60 and -60 degree tests are significantly derated relative to the 0 degree resistive load (in fact 2 ohm 60 inductive fails).

1767200993554.png


Now for a class D amp, notice that the power increases instead of derating at each of 8, 4 and 2 ohms.

1767201174636.png


EPDR assumes that the power derates at non-zero phase angles based on an assumption of an ideal class-B rail-to-rail amp operating at the threshold of its SOA curve. This simplifying assumption is actually not valid for real world amps but is ‘close enough’ for class B and class AB amps which were 99% of amps when EPDR was first proposed decades ago.

For class A and Class D, EPDR is just plain wrong. Class D isn’t less sensitivity to EPDR, it just isn’t a valid calculation in any single way. EPDR is based on SOA curves which don’t apply to switching mode operations - full stop. SOA curves DO apply for class A, but because of the high bias current the math is also massively wrong to the point that EPDR is also not correct for class A.

It seems like you want to simplify assumptions instead of learn the full science, but know that EPDR:
- Isn’t an actual resistance or impedance, it is an “equivalence resistance” which is based on how class B rail-to-rail output stages derate themselves.
- Class B and Class AB amps operate similarly at high power where EPDR is a ‘worst case’ calcuation - most amps like the topping above do not derate by the full amount implied by EPDR.
- The simplifing assumptions for EPDR do not apply to class D amps. The toughest load for a class D amp is the minimum of the speakers impedance curve and is not the minimum EPDR.
- 25 years ago when 95%+ of amps were class AB, saying “EPDR measures how difficult a load is” was a more valid statement but we should no longer say that as class D gains market share.
 
These two bullets are not correct and shows a lack of understanding of class B/AB EPDR calculations.

Look at the 4 ohm and 2 ohm reactive load tests for a Class B amp. Note that the +60 and -60 degree tests are significantly derated relative to the 0 degree resistive load (in fact 2 ohm 60 inductive fails).

View attachment 501012

Now for a class D amp, notice that the power increases instead of derating at each of 8, 4 and 2 ohms.

View attachment 501014

EPDR assumes that the power derates at non-zero phase angles based on an assumption of an ideal class-B rail-to-rail amp operating at the threshold of its SOA curve. This simplifying assumption is actually not valid for real world amps but is ‘close enough’ for class B and class AB amps which were 99% of amps when EPDR was first proposed decades ago.

For class A and Class D, EPDR is just plain wrong. Class D isn’t less sensitivity to EPDR, it just isn’t a valid calculation in any single way. EPDR is based on SOA curves which don’t apply to switching mode operations - full stop. SOA curves DO apply for class A, but because of the high bias current the math is also massively wrong to the point that EPDR is also not correct for class A.

It seems like you want to simplify assumptions instead of learn the full science, but know that EPDR:
- Isn’t an actual resistance or impedance, it is an “equivalence resistance” which is based on how class B rail-to-rail output stages derate themselves.
- Class B and Class AB amps operate similarly at high power where EPDR is a ‘worst case’ calcuation - most amps like the topping above do not derate by the full amount implied by EPDR.
- The simplifing assumptions for EPDR do not apply to class D amps. The toughest load for a class D amp is the minimum of the speakers impedance curve and is not the minimum EPDR.
- 25 years ago when 95%+ of amps were class AB, saying “EPDR measures how difficult a load is” was a more valid statement but we should no longer say that as class D gains market share.
Thanks - you said what I wanted to say, but then I lost the will
:)
 
I can do the Eigentakt amp too as it is still here, but I/we had previously done AB between it and the buckeyeamp NC502MP so we already know they didn't sound different at all. In a week or two, I will try to do a proper AB, level matched, hopefully to within 0.5 dB the A7 Mono and the NC502MP using a relatively cheap AB switch.

View attachment 500977

After using the amps for most of yesterday, I can say the following:

- No concern with heat, I like to use external fan but in this I wouldn't bother, the amps ran cool, hours after listening with volume at about -10 to -16, miniDSP HTx
- Felt the sound signature lean on a little warm vs the buckeyeamp, but it might have to do with the slightly lower gain, 23 db vs 25.5 dB, so I increased the gain on the HTx by 2.5 dB trying to restore the balance between the BMR and the two subwoofers.
- In reality, I think they sound the same, the little perceived warmth most likely meant nothing as it was even a AB comparison, and not exactly level matched.
- auto sensing seems to work within less than 1 second, but it wasn't instantaneously, still I see no need to have the trigger thing for my use.
- The 48 V 5 A PS is physically smaller than the Fosi Mono I just bought a few weeks ago, and that one is quite a bit smaller than another 48 V 5 A PS I bought also from Fosi about a year ago. So it looks like manufacturers are downsizing, wonder why, may be efficiency has gotten better so they may as well make them smaller and lighter to save on shipping costs?

So far I see no reason to keep the buckeyeamp, would likely sell it or the VTV Eigentakt amp in a month or so and keep the A7 Mono amps. 140 W is more than enough for what I need so there is no point to keep the other two 200/300 W class D amps.
Happy to hear you're enjoying yours as much as I'm enjoying mine. Cheers, Peng.
 
- Felt the sound signature lean on a little warm vs the buckeyeamp, but it might have to do with the slightly lower gain, 23 db vs 25.5 dB, so I increased the gain on the HTx by 2.5 dB trying to restore the balance between the BMR and the two subwoofers.
- In reality, I think they sound the same, the little perceived warmth most likely meant nothing as it was even a AB comparison, and not exactly level matched.
With the necessary caveat in relation to all that has said correctly about perceptions etc. I would just say that I stayed with the A7 over the A5 - for it's slight character. Would not necessarily call it warmth - but something, 'ease' vs 'more pristine' maybe. Anyway, loving mine too.

Interesting to read your comparisons, especially vs the more expensive gear ... enforces my lack of desire to change, and indeed what the the measurements suggested way back on page 1. Eigentakt would be interesting too.
 
With the necessary caveat in relation to all that has said correctly about perceptions etc. I would just say that I stayed with the A7 over the A5 - for it's slight character. Would not necessarily call it warmth - but something, 'ease' vs 'more pristine' maybe. Anyway, loving mine too.

Interesting to read your comparisons, especially vs the more expensive gear ... enforces my lack of desire to change, and indeed what the the measurements suggested way back on page 1. Eigentakt would be interesting too.
When I purchased the VTV Eigentakt and buckeyeamp NC502MP, I got rid of my more expensive one such as the A21 and 4BSST, but with that little switch I should be able to do some comparison with the Hypex and Purifi amp, can also compare with my cheaper amp, the NAD C326BEE, or even my vintage Marantz pre/power amp lol....., will be time consuming but it may be fun. My hearing is not as good as it used to be, so might have to get a much younger audiophile to come and help.

I may actually grab an A5 later this year for my desktop, where I currently use a Fosi BT20A Pro that replaced the NAD amp, but has listed it on eBay already. It sounds fine with the LS50 but I never use the BT and volume control so may as well get a more powerful amp, even just for desktop.
 
Dennis is aging and alive and still active. That thread on AVS you can go to and get a good answer (although you'll have to battle the idiots that clutter the discussion with self indulgent nonsense. )

Although I doubt there is a big difference, it might be worth the upgrade.

Thank you for the info. It is another of those want vs need. I have since opted for "Active bookshelf speaker stands" so there really is no need to worry about upgrading the woofer anymore.;)

1767364069232.jpeg
 
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