3e audio A7/A7 Mono Amplifier Review

[antcollinet]

I really dont think its fixable with eq, here is with 1/48 smoothing View attachment 494521

Difficult to tell from that without knowing the vertical scale.

You might just need a target curve with more of a bass boost - or a steeper downslope.

Alternatively you say you are using USB into the mini DSP, presumably from a PC. Is it possible you have something set up wrong in the PC causing unbalanced frequency response. If not, then play with a graphic equaliser on the source - see if you can find an equalisation that gives you a more pleasing sound to your ears. If you can then you could build that into the target curve for your room eq. Look at the table (link) of which frequencies impact which perceptual characteristic. You may need to be looking at the Upper midrange upwards (1.2kHz and up). Interestingly in your curve above, there is a bit of a boost in that area compared with the bass frequencies. (overall a lump from around 600Hz up to 2kHz which could be causing harshness)






If you are saying everything was fine with a different amp - which amp?

I dont really think thats what it is, I expected an improvement in this department after switching from the kefs. Other people have said this about class D

There is nothing ineherent about class D that can cause what you are experiencing any more than from an equally performant class AB amp. Before you waste time and money swapping them out, you need to find out what is really going on. Or you will end up in the same situation with just a different but more expensive amp.


The to most likely possibilities : you are used to a system with a rolled off frequency response - and now you have somthing ruler flat it sound harsh to you.

Or - you have been told or read over years ("other people have said") that class D is harsh and/or clinical - so that is what you are hearing. Regardless of the sound. And remember.....

Perceptive bias has nothing to do with our conscious expectations. The fact that you consciously expected an improvement does not stop your biases creating what you are now experiencing.

 

[Mort]

Before you waste time and money swapping them out, you need to find out what is really going on. Or you will end up in the same situation with just a different but more expensive amp.

Or they could experience the placebo effect and be happy.

 

[antcollinet]

Or they could experience the placebo effect and be happy.

It's not a placebo effect (it is not like medicine) if it is happening it is perceptive bias, or possibly just a case of letting thier ears get used to a new sound - and those things are often unstable. Or it could be the 600 to 2Khz boost I pointed out - and that will remain whatever amp is put in place - plus is easily fixed.

Which is why they need to work out what is going on. It is exceptionally unlikely to be the amp itself causing the problem.

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

Difficult to tell from that without knowing the vertical scale.

You might just need a target curve with more of a bass boost - or a steeper downslope.

Alternatively you say you are using USB into the mini DSP, presumably from a PC. Is it possible you have something set up wrong in the PC causing unbalanced frequency response. If not, then play with a graphic equaliser on the source - see if you can find an equalisation that gives you a more pleasing sound to your ears. If you can then you could build that into the target curve for your room eq. Look at the table (link) of which frequencies impact which perceptual characteristic. You may need to be looking at the Upper midrange upwards (1.2kHz and up). Interestingly in your curve above, there is a bit of a boost in that area compared with the bass frequencies. (overall a lump from around 600Hz up to 2kHz which could be causing harshness)






If you are saying everything was fine with a different amp - which amp?



There is nothing ineherent about class D that can cause what you are experiencing any more than from an equally performant class AB amp. Before you waste time and money swapping them out, you need to find out what is really going on. Or you will end up in the same situation with just a different but more expensive amp.


The to most likely possibilities : you are used to a system with a rolled off frequency response - and now you have somthing ruler flat it sound harsh to you.

Or - you have been told or read over years ("other people have said") that class D is harsh and/or clinical - so that is what you are hearing. Regardless of the sound. And remember.....

Perceptive bias has nothing to do with our conscious expectations. The fact that you consciously expected an improvement does not stop your biases creating what you are now experiencing.

Just to make sure I wasn't somehow mistaken I tried doing an extra low treble eq, specifically nuking the range youre talking about.

It sounds dull and dark, but the harshness is unchanged.



I never claimed this was better with a different amp, as I have only ever used these speakers with these amps.

 

[antcollinet]

Just to make sure I wasn't somehow mistaken I tried doing an extra low treble eq, specifically nuking the range youre talking about.

It sounds dull and dark, but the harshness is unchanged.



I never claimed this was better with a different amp, as I have only ever used these speakers with these amps.

The other suggestions? Eg playing with a bigger bass bump, or a steeper curve. Graphic EQ is great for doing "quick and dirty" experiments. Or a couple of parametric shelf filters boosting the bass and taming the midrange and treble.


When I first eq'd my system I was similarly unhappy with the harshness. I used a custom target with a bigger bass boost, and steeper decline and liked it. However after time I began to find that dull - so the next time I used a more unusual target curve - I preferred this but it still felt "bright" for. a while. Sounds great now. Our perceptions change as we get used to a "sound"

Another thing worth checking if you haven't already is the polarity of your speakers. Having this mismatched can result in all sorts of weirdness.

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

The other suggestions? Eg playing with a bigger bass bump, or a steeper curve. Graphic EQ is great for doing "quick and dirty" experiments. Or a couple of parametric shelf filters boosting the bass and taming the midrange and treble.


When I first eq'd my system I was similarly unhappy with the harshness. I used a custom target with a bigger bass boost, and steeper decline and liked it. However after time I began to find that dull - so the next time I used a more unusual target curve - I preferred this but it still felt "bright" for. a while. Sounds great now. Our perceptions change as we get used to a "sound"

Another thing worth checking if you haven't already is the polarity of your speakers. Having this mismatched can result in all sorts of weirdness.

Long before I posted here I spent hours - days tweaking and checking. I understand that many times people simply have no idea what they're doing, thats not the case here. The polarity is correct, I am not an audio n00b.

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

For reference, here is my downward slope curve that did not solve the problem but did make everything sound dull

 

[wavetrade]

It's not a placebo effect (it is not like medicine) if it is happening it is perceptive bias, or possibly just a case of letting thier ears get used to a new sound - and those things are often unstable. Or it could be the 600 to 2Khz boost I pointed out - and that will remain whatever amp is put in place - plus is easily fixed.

Which is why they need to work out what is going on. It is exceptionally unlikely to be the amp itself causing the problem.

All of this discussion did help me. I took a bunch of measurements with my A7 and then did the same with my NCX500. Found that the NCX setup is consistently slightly boosted in this 600 to 1.8Khz range relative to the A7. With just a slight bit of EQ here it now seems to be sounding like the rest of my class D amps. Not sure what is making it different but I can live with the EQ.

 

[harkpabst]

View attachment 494659

For reference, here is my downward slope curve that did not solve the problem but did make everything sound dull

Still useless as you keep hiding the vertical scale.

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

Still useless as you keep hiding the vertical scale.

Doesn't matter, I have literally spent 12+ hours collectively in rew trying to fix this problem, I cannot eq it away even if I go too far.

 

[harkpabst]

This perfectly illustrates why I think you're not really asking for help ...

You didn't comment on that, yet.

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

This perfectly illustrates why I think you're not really asking for help ...

You didn't comment on that, yet.

I am not asking for EQ help, I have tried many iterations and started from scratch several times on that front. EQ is not the solution to my problem.

 

[harkpabst]

You sound like a broken record and you don't provide anything substantial. You don't answer questions, you just spread claims. This is not even a discussion thread for specific likes or dislikes or compatibility issue. This is the review thread and users are encouraged to stay on topic in review threads.

If it wasn't you I'd call somebody acting like that a troll.

 

[antcollinet]

I am not asking for EQ help, I have tried many iterations and started from scratch several times on that front. EQ is not the solution to my problem.

OK. There are only 4 things for an amp that vary one to another. Noise, distortion, frequency response, and output impedance.


Unless your amp is faulty, it has inaudible noise and distortion, and close to ruler flat frequency response. Also very low output impedance. There is nothing here to create the "harshness" you are hearing. So it is either:

1 - Assume amp is faulty and return it, or beg, steal or borrow another amp to put it to the test.
2 - Some setting or other screwed up in the source - but you say it is not that.
3 - Speaker / room interaction - in which case pretty much the *only* solution is room EQ, unless you want to replace the speakers with something else.
4 - Perceptive bias, and there is nothing actually wrong with the sound. Pretty much the only thing you could do here would be a properly controlled blind test against - something else. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Your conviction that EQ is not the solution, and that you are "not a noob". and have already tried everything - pretty much means there is no help anyone here can offer. I suggest you leave it and make up your own mind.

Personally, I'm out.

 

[oldloder]

I am not asking for EQ help, I have tried many iterations and started from scratch several times on that front. EQ is not the solution to my problem.

Have you tried putting whatever you were using for amplification before back in to compare it with the A7's?

 

[NJ coffee roaster]

OK. There are only 4 things for an amp that vary one to another. Noise, distortion, frequency response, and output impedance.


Unless your amp is faulty, it has inaudible noise and distortion, and close to ruler flat frequency response. Also very low output impedance. There is nothing here to create the "harshness" you are hearing. So it is either:

1 - Assume amp is faulty and return it, or beg, steal or borrow another amp to put it to the test.
2 - Some setting or other screwed up in the source - but you say it is not that.
3 - Speaker / room interaction - in which case pretty much the *only* solution is room EQ, unless you want to replace the speakers with something else.
4 - Perceptive bias, and there is nothing actually wrong with the sound. Pretty much the only thing you could do here would be a properly controlled blind test against - something else. I'm not going to hold my breath.

Your conviction that EQ is not the solution, and that you are "not a noob". and have already tried everything - pretty much means there is no help anyone here can offer. I suggest you leave it and make up your own mind.

Personally, I'm out.

Oh no, I definitely have not tried everything, I have just thoroughly exhausted the eq option. Days before I posted here I spent many, many hours in REW with a mic.

My goal of the post was to figure out if there was something else non-eq related I could be missing before I try to swap amps. This is definitely not perceptive bias, based on the reviews here I had the best expectations for these amps and they're overall amazing performers. I did not know until recently, way after I got the amps, that there is a group of people who for whatever reason find class d fatiguing and can't figure out why, I'm worried that I may be in that group. Unless, somehow its my minidsp flex, which I doubt, but maybe?

 

[antcollinet]

based on the reviews here I had the best expectations for these amps and they're overall amazing performers.

Again, as pointed out above that is not necessarily how perceptive bias works.

It need have nothing to do with your conscious biases (prejudices) or expectations:

We know that our hearing is subject to cognitive/perceptive bias. What we hear is impacted by what we know, what we believe, how we feel, our life experiences, what we see etc etc. No-one is immune to this if they are human - it is how we are built. In fact we would be unable to function if our senses were not filtered by our unconscious brain. Everyone is subject to this, it happens at the unconscious level, and it is not possible to avoid it - even when we are aware it is happening.

 

[oldloder]

Process of elimination ... each element including interconnects from original amplification right through to connection to the speakers ... A/B comparison. Just be curious.

 

[Roland68]

Oh no, I definitely have not tried everything, I have just thoroughly exhausted the eq option. Days before I posted here I spent many, many hours in REW with a mic.

My goal of the post was to figure out if there was something else non-eq related I could be missing before I try to swap amps. This is definitely not perceptive bias, based on the reviews here I had the best expectations for these amps and they're overall amazing performers. I did not know until recently, way after I got the amps, that there is a group of people who for whatever reason find class d fatiguing and can't figure out why, I'm worried that I may be in that group. Unless, somehow its my minidsp flex, which I doubt, but maybe?

That's precisely why I asked you to completely bypass the miniDSP Flex and test without it.

During our various blind amplifier tests, we also had a few people who swore up and down that they could immediately recognize any Class D amplifier (harsh sound, harsh treble, digital, etc.).
The tests included, among others, a Class A F5 amplifier and classic Class AB amplifiers from NAD and Yamaha.
And what was the result? Without exception, everyone found the Sabaj A30a to be one of the best—a true digital amplifier without any analog circuitry. This was along with TPA325X-based PFFB amplifiers (A7, A5, PA5/II, etc.) and the more expensive Purifi amplifiers.
No one could identify any of the Class D amplifiers; quite the opposite, in fact.

On the other hand, we once had a DAC for testing that I could distinguish from any other DAC with absolute certainty, even blindfolded, because I would get a severe headache within 30 seconds of it playing music.

I've also come to consider you resistant to advice. It seems to me that you only want one answer confirmed (A7 Mono) and everything else goes against your grain.
If you really have a problem and want to solve it, this is the worst way.

It always makes the most sense to approach something like this logically and, as a first step, remove/replace components from the system one by one to see if there's a change.

 

[Chaos01]

@NJ coffee roaster Did you have a tube Amp before? I would say enough for this thread, Open a new one.