3D printed classic 3-way budget speaker project using SB and Dayton drivers

[ppataki]

A small update: I have decided to upgrade the Dayton dome tweeters (just out of curiosity) to these HiVi Swan RT1.3WE ribbon tweeters
I am extremely happy with the Dayton tweeters, they sound awesome, but I am just curious what (if any) a ribbon tweeter can add to the listening experience

They have arrived today:

As you can see on the pictures, one of the 3D printed cabinets is already done; I will need to finish the inside later today and then will publish the measurement data
I am planning to cross these at 3000Hz using LR 24dB/octave linear phase crossover (the usual story....) - but of course first I need to see the measurements (distortion mainly) to confirm if that is viable or not

I am really excited!

 

[DanielT]

A small update: I have decided to upgrade the Dayton dome tweeters (just out of curiosity) to these HiVi Swan RT1.3WE ribbon tweeters
I am extremely happy with the Dayton tweeters, they sound awesome, but I am just curious what (if any) a ribbon tweeter can add to the listening experience

They have arrived today:

View attachment 503611View attachment 503612
View attachment 503613View attachment 503614

As you can see on the pictures, one of the 3D printed cabinets is already done; I will need to finish the inside later today and then will publish the measurement data
I am planning to cross these at 3000Hz using LR 24dB/octave linear phase crossover (the usual story....) - but of course first I need to see the measurements (distortion mainly) to confirm if that is viable or not

I am really excited!

Interesting. You can tell us later how you think it sounds.
I'm guessing that the HiVi Swan RT1.3WE ribbon tweeters has relatively high distortion. I could of course be wrong, but still.

IF I remember correctly, some (all?) ribbon tweeters tend to have quite high distortion.

The main disadvantages of typical ribbon tweeters:

1. Very limited vertical dispersion

2. Uneven frequency response

3. High distortion (for many reasons, including transformer coupling and undamped mode - diaphragm distortion)

4. Mechanical sensitivity

5. High price

In addition, modern dome tweeters are so high-performance that there is no reason to use ribbon tweeters.

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Varför så få banddiskanter?

Regarding price, it is not true for HiVi Swan RT1.3WE.
(€ 49.95)

 

[ppataki]

Interesting. You can tell us later how you think it sounds.
I'm guessing that the HiVi Swan RT1.3WE ribbon tweeters has relatively high distortion. I could of course be wrong, but still.

IF I remember correctly, some (all?) ribbon tweeters tend to have quite high distortion.

The main disadvantages of typical ribbon tweeters:

1. Very limited vertical dispersion

2. Uneven frequency response

3. High distortion (for many reasons, including transformer coupling and undamped mode - diaphragm distortion)

4. Mechanical sensitivity

5. High price

In addition, modern dome tweeters are so high-performance that there is no reason to use ribbon tweeters.

faktiskt.io • Visa tråd - Varför så få banddiskanter?

Regarding price, it is not true for HiVi Swan RT1.3WE.
(€ 49.95)

Here are the distortion graphs I found online - this was one of the reasons why I chose this driver:

Off-axis performance:

Impedance/phase:

Hopefully later today/tomorrow I will be able to provide my measurements too (not off-axis but on-axis + phase + distortion for sure)

 

[a4eaudio]

The HiVi RT1.3 is highly regarded on Parts Express Tech Talk. In older threads there is the comment that it is best crossed above 2.6kHz and user PWRRYD designed the Keramiskas (a two way with the SB15CAC woofer that was sold as a kit before Meniscus closed) and he crossed close to 3kHz.

 

[DanielT]

Here are the distortion graphs I found online - this was one of the reasons why I chose this driver:

View attachment 503633

Off-axis performance:

View attachment 503634

Impedance/phase:

View attachment 503635

Hopefully later today/tomorrow I will be able to provide my measurements too (not off-axis but on-axis + phase + distortion for sure)

Interesting. The quote in my #82 might have applied to ribbon tweeters in the past?

 

[ppataki]

Interesting. The quote in my #82 might have applied to ribbon tweeters in the past?

Apparently not, unfortunately....

I can only comment on the measurements objectively at this stage but the distortion is definitely much higher than that of the Dayton dome tweeters.....

Let's see the MLP measurements (250cm with UMIK-2 at 0°), HiVi is the green(ish), Dayton is the orange

Frequency response:

To me this is OK, only small corrections needed to even them out
The HiVi is actually closer to linear for that matter

Distortion:

There is a huge difference.....
I was not expecting the HiVi to be this bad compared to the Dayton
Especially that spike at 8kHz is worrisome

Maybe the unit is defective?
Tomorrow (or the day after) I will measure the other HiVi tweeter too and compare them with each other

On the good side though, let's take a look at the ETC curve:

The HiVi has a much nicer curve, it oscillates less

Now let's compare the Wavelet diagrams (3kHz to 24kHz), Dayton on the left, HiVi on the right
The HiVi is way cleaner, it has much less post-ringing - this might confirm why people say that ribbon tweeters are 'fast'

Next steps:
- as mentioned above, once the other cabinet is printed too, I will measure the other unit to see if there is a difference
- I will listen to them to be able to comment subjectively as well

 

[PGansz]

That's disappointing, I hope it is defective and the other measures better. Also proves the Dayton is a fantastic value.

 

[Ktacos]

There is a huge difference.....
I was not expecting the HiVi to be this bad compared to the Dayton

About what I would expect. Planars tend to have higher distortion than domes.

 

[PGansz]

About what I would expect. Planars tend to have higher distortion than domes.

Really? If you look at the spec sheets they are actually incredible low for most of them and hence is their selling point. Fixed impedance and low distortion is pretty clean...

 

[Ktacos]

Really? If you look at the spec sheets they are actually incredible low for most of them and hence is their selling point. Fixed impedance and low distortion is pretty clean...

What spec sheets? What drivers? Selling points are kind of moot when the data speaks for itself.

 

[ppataki]

OK Gents, here is the latest (and potentially final) update on this topic from my end:

I have managed to measure both the HiVi RT1.3WE tweeters from 1cm; see the FR below:

As you can see there is a huge variation between the two units - this I find totally unacceptable

Now the distortion:

This is 5-7x vs. my super cheap Dayton tweeters.....

I have already requested the return with full refund from Soundimports

I am very sorry, but these tweeters are rather useless (to me, at least)
I would not recommend them to anybody

 

[Salt]

OK Gents, here is the latest (and potentially final) update on this topic from my end:

I have managed to measure both the HiVi RT1.3WE tweeters from 1cm; see the FR below:

View attachment 503902


As you can see there is a huge variation between the two units - this I find totally unacceptable

Now the distortion:

View attachment 503903

This is 5-7x vs. my super cheap Dayton tweeters.....

I have already requested the return with full refund from Soundimports

I am very sorry, but these tweeters are rather useless (to me, at least)
I would not recommend them to anybody

You do not want to know how the ESS AMT measure that I have here ... and they're even paired by the distributor

 

[DanielT]

OK Gents, here is the latest (and potentially final) update on this topic from my end:

I have managed to measure both the HiVi RT1.3WE tweeters from 1cm; see the FR below:

View attachment 503902


As you can see there is a huge variation between the two units - this I find totally unacceptable

Now the distortion:

View attachment 503903

This is 5-7x vs. my super cheap Dayton tweeters.....

I have already requested the return with full refund from Soundimports

I am very sorry, but these tweeters are rather useless (to me, at least)
I would not recommend them to anybody

That was a shame. In any case, your tests and measurements are interesting for the rest of us to read.

 

[Ktacos]

I said it before, you'll have a hard time beating the ND25FW.

 

[ppataki]

I said it before, you'll have a hard time beating the ND25FW.

Definitely true!

Any thoughts anybody on the SB26STWGC-4?
I might give it a try, just for fun....

 

[Salt]

Before you might give that planars a chance via individual EQ (had to apply this to the AMT too) and listen to the result. Might not be that bad as expectable.

 

[Ktacos]

Definitely true!

Any thoughts anybody on the SB26STWGC-4?
I might give it a try, just for fun....

Probably very similar results, maybe less distortion. I'm sure the ND25FW's is already low enough to not hear. Maybe a lower xover but kind of pointless when the waveguide stops working around 3k. I'm a believer in the macro aspects of drivers typically dominating their characteristics, so a ~1" dome in a 104mm waveguide is probably going to sound extremely similar to another ~1" dome in a 104mm waveguide, especially if the domes appear to be mounted at similar depths as these two tweeters appear to be.

I can definitely tell you, they won't sound ~$170 better than the nd25fw.

 

[PGansz]

OK Gents, here is the latest (and potentially final) update on this topic from my end:

I have managed to measure both the HiVi RT1.3WE tweeters from 1cm; see the FR below:

View attachment 503902


As you can see there is a huge variation between the two units - this I find totally unacceptable

Now the distortion:

View attachment 503903

This is 5-7x vs. my super cheap Dayton tweeters.....

I have already requested the return with full refund from Soundimports

I am very sorry, but these tweeters are rather useless (to me, at least)
I would not recommend them to anybody

Can you show the Dayton's measurements overlaid with these? What was the SPL during distortion measurement?

 

[DanielT]

Probably very similar results, maybe less distortion. I'm sure the ND25FW's is already low enough to not hear. Maybe a lower xover but kind of pointless when the waveguide stops working around 3k. I'm a believer in the macro aspects of drivers typically dominating their characteristics, so a ~1" dome in a 104mm waveguide is probably going to sound extremely similar to another ~1" dome in a 104mm waveguide, especially if the domes appear to be mounted at similar depths as these two tweeters appear to be.

I can definitely tell you, they won't sound ~$170 better than the nd25fw.

A contender is the SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4. About double the price (when purchased at TLHP) vs. the ND25FW.
Very good performance for that price. The advantage of the SB26ADC is that the crossover vs. the ND25FW can be set lower.
Excellent measurement data:

SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass

The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage levels 2.83 - 8 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd order Buttreworth type, 500 Hz cutoff, HPF2-500). The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage level 11.2 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd...

hificompass.com

If you want a WG for it, there is:

Waveguides | Mysite

www.somasonus.net

Or if you want to test this WG, it only costs $10, PRV Audio WG08-25. It is made of plastic so you can saw it up to fit the SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4. But okay then maybe it is easier to choose a compression driver for that WG.

PRV Audio WG08-25 Black 1" 90 x 90 Waveguide

PRV Audio WG08-25 Black 1" 90 x 90 WaveguideEquipped with a standard 1-3/8" - 18 TPI screw-on mount, it seamlessly pairs with any 1" exit screw-on compression driver. Crafted from non-resonant ABS plastic, the WG08-25 stands resilient against outdoor elements or automotive settings. Remarkably...

www.parts-express.com

 

[PGansz]

A contender is the SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4. About double the price (when purchased at TLHP) vs. the ND25FW.
Very good performance for that price. The advantage of the SB26ADC is that the crossover vs. the ND25FW can be set lower.
Excellent measurement data:

SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 | HiFiCompass

The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage levels 2.83 - 8 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd order Buttreworth type, 500 Hz cutoff, HPF2-500). The THD measurements at distance of 315 mm and voltage level 11.2 Volt were carried out with High Pass Filter "on" (2nd...

hificompass.com

If you want a WG for it, there is:

Waveguides | Mysite

www.somasonus.net

Or if you want to test this WG, it only costs $10, PRV Audio WG08-25. It is made of plastic so you can saw it up to fit the SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4. But okay then maybe it is easier to choose a compression driver for that WG.
View attachment 504035View attachment 504036

PRV Audio WG08-25 Black 1" 90 x 90 Waveguide

PRV Audio WG08-25 Black 1" 90 x 90 WaveguideEquipped with a standard 1-3/8" - 18 TPI screw-on mount, it seamlessly pairs with any 1" exit screw-on compression driver. Crafted from non-resonant ABS plastic, the WG08-25 stands resilient against outdoor elements or automotive settings. Remarkably...

www.parts-express.com

I second this. I'm finalizing my build plans and settled on either the aluminum or ceramic.

Here's a link to 3D printed plans for waveguides: https://www.somasonus.net/sb-acoustics-sb26