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$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

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IamJF

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I’m sort of confused about what this guy is saying:
Dave is a genius and huge figure in Live Sound. Typical live engineer with a "make it work before think days about it" attitude - love it.
One of the most experienced guys in the business.

The line array he showed was of course a VERY simple version of a line array - which was not working to 20kHz. In "real" PA linearrays they do a lot of work to get it working till hich frequencies - you need a very special waveguide/horn type for the tweeters which extend the line over all the boxes without hard corners or walls.
L-Acoustics_L2-line-PCH.jpg

With the angle of the modules you can define the area you put your sound pressure. Sometimes you can also influence that electronically.
Less interference, less speakers hanging, more output at the distance and dedicated midrange drivers ( a BIG point in the better sound which often gots forgotten!)
 

kma100

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There aren’t that many devices that can output a digital signal and attenuate it, some streamers, Before the 8Cs became ‘roon ready’ I used an RME ‘pro’.
Now I just plug them into the local network and stream Roon to them directly, Roon’s attenuation is linked to the 8Cs ascend app, but once you have set the speakers parameters,
boundary, triangle, EQ filters tone etc you never need to open the app again.
Keith
Is there a solution that doesn't involve Roon? I suppose many people would stream Apple Music, Spotify, etc. How would it work there?
 

jhenderson0107

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...how are you handling digital volume control?

Thanks!
1. The Trinnov Altitude 16 includes TosLink optical and coax (four channels) outputs whose volume is controlled digitally. I convert these to AES via Hosa converters and drive the digital inputs of Genelec L, C, R in my home theater.
2. The RME Fs Pro and UCX II provide an AES output whose volume is controlled digitally. I use the former to feed a miniDSP 4x10 HD to drive the Linkwitz 521.4s and the latter to drive 8341A+7360s digitally.
3. Roon, LMS squeezecenter and likely many other network music servers allow digital volume control.
4. Many pro mixers perform digital volume control. My 1U Roland M1000 does this.
 

srrxr71

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Not looking to pick a fight. My information is true..didn't have the RME at the time. My set up was purely run by the D&Ds through a Mutec 1.1 converter from optical to AES. I wanted less interfaces and even D&D told me that it's better do go directly into the speakers.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will haha) if there is no ability to connect to the web, I cannot access the the D&D address designated for the speakers. All I know is it was promised to me as a simple set up. That I could have their web address handle volume control and it would be simple. My partner was always frustrated and sometimes it just wouldn't load. I'd have to restart the app. Maybe it's gotten better.
I mean they don’t let you connect directly to the speaker via local network? Wow
 
D

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Now, that's exciting! Doesn't sound like any of the known suspects from Sigberg, DD, Kii, Geithain, GGNTKT or Mesanovic.

My guess is Ex Machina,
I think you're right. He did say something about "e" for effort.

Thanks for the great feedback! It turns out the demos I will be getting are setup for analog in only, and can’t be changed, so won’t use digital. But, if I eventually go this route, was wondering how the heck to do digital volume control. As you have said, seems to be no easy solution. But, from another thread this was recommended …


Wouldn’t this work? I think this is effectively the capability you get with the RME?

As to the D&D cabinets, never heard of that being an issue before. Definitely that could be an issue for me, certainly I don’t live in a “humidity controlled environment“. Interesting they chose to use wood. I will have to ask Martijn about this.

Thanks again!
Forgot about that. I knew I forgot one. Yes that is the other option, but, and this is going to sound effing pretentious, but something in me is never going to trust a miniDSP product to work as a go between on such a high end system. I think I would have gone the Lake people route before this one just because of their pedigree as a studio brand.

Well that isn’t quite right is it, firstly the XLR inputs of the 8Cs can be either digital or analogue, ‘analogue’ just like a traditional speaker one cable going to the left speaker, one to the right, if you choose ‘digital’ in then the cables are daisy chained, volume can be controlled by your RME if you had the ‘pro’ version you could send the 8Cs a digital signal and attenuate it.
The only times the 8Cs wouldn’t work ( if the internet is down) is when streaming from either Roon or Spotify connect directly.
I have had Geithains here the 944ks definitely not the best thing I have heard but not bad.
Keith
Not looking to pick a fight. My information is true..didn't have the RME at the time. My set up was purely run by the D&Ds through a Mutec 1.1 converter from optical to AES. I wanted less interfaces and even D&D told me that it's better do go directly into the speakers.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will haha) if there is no ability to connect to the web, I cannot access the the D&D address designated for the speakers. All I know is it was promised to me as a simple set up. That I could have their web address handle volume control and it would be simple. My partner was always frustrated and sometimes it just wouldn't load. I'd have to restart the app. Maybe it's gotten better.

I mean they don’t let you connect directly to the speaker via local network? Wow
They do, that is if you are going through a computer. If you are running ethernet through a PC directly to the speaker, then no problem. I was doing everything through their app. It was all over wifi and that router device would be connected to the speakers. If it wasnt working, you couldnt control the speakers.

I had a *bad experience* when I had 5xJBL 705Ps (2x250w amps in each speaker) set up nearfield with AES connections and got a full signal white noise test signal after hitting the wrong button on my computer.

Hard to describe, but no interest in a repeat.

Direct digital connections give me the heebies...
I never had it happen with these, but did when I connected some AML2 PMC speakers to the wrong output and they just clipped instantly. It gives me goospimples to think about it. There's always that fear in the back of my mind that the volume control will be bypassed and I get a full signal.
 

srrxr71

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Hi

I'll play :). I don't know the Perlisten, nor the Vivid Audio... So I'll write these off the list.
The Genelec 8351/W371A would have been my dream setup for 2-channel but I find the W371A too dear, 20K for bass modules which is what they are, is above what makes sense to me ...
any of the other speakers you mentioned plus 4 subwoofers.

The best cost to performance ratio would be the Revel 328Be + 4 SVS Subwoofers or HSU or Rythmik would cover a superlative system, that plumbs the depth down to single Hz digits to where the bats converse with no issue.. and with money left for the proper DSP, say a miniDSP 2x4 HD or something better ...
The Magico A5 with 4 subwoofers even those from SVS or Monooptice + miniDSP would be slighlty over the budget by a few hundreds...
I also don't know how the D&D 8C play with subwoofers.
The Kii 3 + BXT is around $37,000.oo, you could hagle :)
Frankly.. You got it well though out:
You can't go wrong with any of the speakers on your list save for those I truly haven't see good measurements for , the Perlisten and Vivid those IDK.

Peace
Btw my dealer has a lightly used kii3 + bxt he’s letting go for $24k. Just putting that out there.
 

Purité Audio

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I think you're right. He did say something about "e" for effort.


Forgot about that. I knew I forgot one. Yes that is the other option, but, and this is going to sound effing pretentious, but something in me is never going to trust a miniDSP product to work as a go between on such a high end system. I think I would have gone the Lake people route before this one just because of their pedigree as a studio brand.


Not looking to pick a fight. My information is true..didn't have the RME at the time. My set up was purely run by the D&Ds through a Mutec 1.1 converter from optical to AES. I wanted less interfaces and even D&D told me that it's better do go directly into the speakers.

Correct me if I am wrong (and I know you will haha) if there is no ability to connect to the web, I cannot access the the D&D address designated for the speakers. All I know is it was promised to me as a simple set up. That I could have their web address handle volume control and it would be simple. My partner was always frustrated and sometimes it just wouldn't load. I'd have to restart the app. Maybe it's gotten better.


They do, that is if you are going through a computer. If you are running ethernet through a PC directly to the speaker, then no problem. I was doing everything through their app. It was all over wifi and that router device would be connected to the speakers. If it wasnt working, you couldnt control the speakers.


I never had it happen with these, but did when I connected some AML2 PMC speakers to the wrong output and they just clipped instantly. It gives me goospimples to think about it. There's always that fear in the back of my mind that the volume control will be bypassed and I get a full signal.
What was your source when you went through the Mutec?
Why would you need their web address, it sounds as though you were given some very bad advice.
If there is no internet then you can’t open the 8Cs app that is true and you won’t be able to play any streamed music, the App always remembers the last volume setting, if you wanted to attenuate you could always use the playback software’s attenuation.
Keith
 
D

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What was your source when you went through the Mutec?
Why would you need their web address, it sounds as though you were given some very bad advice.
If there is no internet then you can’t open the 8Cs app that is true and you won’t be able to play any streamed music, the App always remembers the last volume setting, if you wanted to attenuate you could always use the playback software’s attenuation.
Keith
lol nope wasn't given bad advice. D&D recommended the mutec. I was using my Apple TV to connect via optical to the mutec, which then fed AES to the speakers. My router handled the ethernet to the speakers. Everything was controlled via the app. Sometimes there would be a scrolling delay or the app just wouldnt work on my phone so I would need to restart the app. If the router or wifi stopped working, I was unable to connect at all. There is no volume control in the software for Apple TV.

You need the web ip address to control the volume from your phone/tablet/pc via browser. That is how they function entirely off of that app/interface.
 

Matt Bell

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Sometimes the journey can be just as fun as the destination.
'Ithaka' (C. P. Cavafy, trans. Phillip Sherrard)

As you set out for Ithaka
hope your road is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
angry Poseidon—don’t be afraid of them:
you’ll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Poseidon—you won’t encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.

Hope your road is a long one.
May there be many summer mornings when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you enter harbors you’re seeing for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind—
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to learn and go on learning from their scholars.

Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you’re destined for.
But don’t hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you’re old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you’ve gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.

Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you wouldn't have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.

And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you’ll have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.
 

Purité Audio

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lol nope wasn't given bad advice. D&D recommended the mutec. I was using my Apple TV to connect via optical to the mutec, which then fed AES to the speakers. My router handled the ethernet to the speakers. Everything was controlled via the app. Sometimes there would be a scrolling delay or the app just wouldnt work on my phone so I would need to restart the app. If the router or wifi stopped working, I was unable to connect at all. There is no volume control in the software for Apple TV.

You need the web ip address to control the volume from your phone/tablet/pc via browser. That is how they function entirely off of that app/interface.
Seems incredibly convoluted, Hosa used to make a neat optical to AES converter, most users just connect their computer, or if there are multiple sources then something like the RME ‘pro’.
Keith
 
D

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Seems incredibly convoluted, Hosa used to make a neat optical to AES converter, most users just connect their computer, or if there are multiple sources then something like the RME ‘pro’.
Keith
Not going to devote more time to this. I dont want to derail the thread. I am only going to answer because someone else might be interested in the info, and because OP was asking about the volume control.

D&D recommended the Mutec to me. They advised using an AES converter before adding another volume control, and recommended the Mutec as something they had used. Seems more robust than the Hosa. Their whole ethos is, all you need is the web interface to make any and all adjustments to the speaker including DSP, volume, software etc.

To be clear I loved the speakers as an all in solution. I only like cardioid designs now for ease of placement. However the volume control within their system, which is what OP wanted to know, leaves a lot to be desired for me. Kii and Genelec at least has a physical solution to this. As does PMC, or they did.
 
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Purité Audio

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The Kii ‘control’, which is hard wired but some functions can be controlled by another remote for example the Apple is a £1600 additional option.
Keith
 

TimW

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But, if I eventually go this route, was wondering how the heck to do digital volume control. As you have said, seems to be no easy solution. But, from another thread this was recommended …

Wouldn’t this work?
It would work. I have the regular SHD and have used the digital output with actives. It works perfectly and has never gone full volume on me even after updates. If you want to set a lower maximum volume you can set a negative gain value for the inputs or outputs to reduce risk of full volume.

Another option which has been mentioned is the Bluesound Node. Its digital output is variable and a maximum volume limit can be set. Darko showed how it could be used this way while reviewing a digital input power amplifier.

The Wiim Pro could also be used in this way.

I would think there are higher end devices with this capability but I'm not familiar with them.
 
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