$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Ilkless]

Have you considered GGNTKTs? Cardioid and a smooth waveguide optimised for really wide dispersion. Believe they are rolling out a high-SPL design soon as well.

@roland{at}GGNTKT @Purité Audio

 

[FrantzM]

I understand where you are coming from but I didn’t generalize about sealed subs vs ported. One SVS sub that I still own is sealed and the other one I sold was ported.

We all have different experiences. My ported sub the SVS PB16 that I paid $2499 at the time (it’s gone up since)…I could never blend it well for music even in sealed mode. My sealed SVS sub the SB13-ultra blended much better than the PB16 but it lacked output. This is my own personal experience…I don’t have measurement devices or feel I need to hang my 175lbs sub 15 feet in the air etc..if someone doesn’t agree with my opinion then I don’t have a problem with it. It’s my $0.02. I like what I have and I enjoy it every day…

The CR-1 will be my next purchase along with a good preamp. I’m sure it’ll do a better job than my Emotiva XMC2 and Dirac for 2 channel listening…things sound good now but not as good as through a pure 2 channel system.

If you don't have any measuring devices, at the very least, a microphone, you can't integrate subs with mains. Not opinion, fact. And without instruments devices, you can only opine.
And what is a "pure" 2-channel system?

You are right, I (we?), cannot debate tastes or preferences.: A person buys/enjoy whatever pleases her/him/they. You can also "be sure", a conjecture, without measurements it will remain so, or at the very least. it may , morph, into an opinion.

Peace.

 

[Lsc]

If you don't have any measuring devices, at the very least, a microphone, you can't integrate subs with mains. Not opinion, fact. And without instruments devices, you can only opine.
And what is a "pure" 2-channel system?

You are right, I (we?), cannot debate tastes or preferences.: A person buys/enjoy whatever pleases her/him/they. You can also "be sure", a conjecture, without measurements it will remain so, or at the very least. it may , morph, into an opinion.

Peace.

I have 3 microphones .

Yes I hope to have a separate pure 2 channel system hopefully next year. Tapped out for the year with my subs and some other things I got.

 

[petezapie]

Quick re-reality check that this site doesn’t often use science, per se. The site relies on equipment to make fairly standardized measurements of other equipment - that’s purely data collection - one step of the scientific method that can be done correctly or incorrectly (and here, both ways have been realized at various points).

Posters here often discuss science, but “original contributions” on ASR rarely venture past subjective extrapolations from a highly restricted population based on said measurements and ultimately bear minimal, if any, experimental design or analytical rigor on the level of a true study. In the interest of science, let’s keep ourselves honest.

It’s better than some other major sites that also let “just about anyone” post (some sites restrict postings to verified engineers or tradespersons only - that has its shortcomings but does provide a filter for superfluity and certain unnecessary arguments). This site is rather like the recent back-and-forth on line arrays on the previous page - they do not solve the “problem” they’re designed to address, but if used properly, can best address the “problem” of currently available options. So it is with ASR and the measurements published here or elsewhere (I can’t be the only person to think it would be more accurate were the website name AMIR - Audio Measurement Inspector’s Review).

Just remember - what any audio kit (particularly speakers) actually “does” must be distilled from behavioral (basically, consumer preference) studies that are generally lacking, or at least very limited, in (peer-reviewed) publications focused on advances in audio technology. Spins are a good example of a “best tool presently available” not equaling a rigorously controlled standard, despite their potential utility.

None of that is intended as a slight to this site or any individual participant on it. However, we still live in a world in which studies (let alone isolated comments or anecdotes) that aren’t peer reviewed are conventionally considered to be outside the realm of scientifically robust information.

This thread is a good example of ASR utility - it’s interesting as a public diary contrasting different opinions based on individual preferences and (often) contrasting past experiences. Many of those are anchored in some degree of objectivity despite being founded on diverse subjective preferences (in music listening). Collated anecdotes, if ya will. Those aren’t useless depending on what you want out of your online reading experience. But they ain’t often qualifiable as science.

May the speaker search resume…

I couldnt agree more, my feet are solidly placed between science and subjectivity which seems perfectly reasonable. I have made my mistakes believing that a certain anointed speaker brand with certain testing pedigree, would result in ultimate performance for me which simply did not turn out to be true. While this post started as one persons quest for the "end game" speaker, i think we can agree that it has sparked a much bigger interest we all have in finding our ultimate system. I enjoy hearing about other peoples journey as well as the OP so i hope this post lives on well beyond his final speaker selection.

 

[MKR]

Have you considered GGNTKTs? Cardioid and a smooth waveguide optimised for really wide dispersion. Believe they are rolling out a high-SPL design soon as well.

@roland{at}GGNTKT @Purité Audio

Thanks … actually been on the list (the new M2, M3, or whatever the final name is) almost since the beginning, but very difficult to audition, that is the primary issue

 

[songOVERsound]

Thanks … actually been on the list (the new M2, M3, or whatever the final name is) almost since the beginning, but very difficult to audition, that is the primary issue

I think this is honestly why D&D and Kii 3 is (presumably?) so successful. The idea of being able to hop on a plane and demo bigger speakers or have speakers sent to your home means that a company is willing to stand behind their product at all costs.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not throwing shade at smaller operations. The smaller guys winning means competitive pricing, which is what I’m after.

The bummer about the GGNTKT M3 to me and possibly many studio guys, is the mid-field listening distance. Granted, the M3 seems to be a zero compromise mastering grade speaker, so I’m not saying it should be near-field.. but with all (most..) the commercial studios going away, space becomes even more valuable. And buying a set of Kii 3 w/ BXT and still being just 5 feet away from them will allow small home studios to think big. The same goes for what Genelec is doing. All of their larger scale systems including the newly announced 8381a is said to work even closer than 3 meters.

Why anyone would want to sit that close to those alien behemoth structures is beyond me… BUT, for someone looking into their different options out there, or is comforting knowing that if for some reason a person needs to sit 3.5 meters away, they will be far enough away from the minimum distance, which builds confidence

Edit: also, let’s say you are overhauling your studio or hi-fi listening space or moving to a small room or whatever comes up… knowing that you will be able to move your speakers in a continue on is a good safety net. Being able to slide the Kii three top off the BXT and record an album somewhere for a month and a half and bring them back and slide them right back on the BXT. This is underrated imo

 

[srrxr71]

I think this is honestly why D&D and Kii 3 is (presumably?) so successful. The idea of being able to hop on a plane and demo bigger speakers or have speakers sent to your home means that a company is willing to stand behind their product at all costs.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not throwing shade at smaller operations. The smaller guys winning means competitive pricing, which is what I’m after.

The bummer about the GGNTKT M3 to me and possibly many studio guys, is the mid-field listening distance. Granted, the M3 seems to be a zero compromise mastering grade speaker, so I’m not saying it should be near-field.. but with all (most..) the commercial studios going away, space becomes even more valuable. And buying a set of Kii 3 w/ BXT and still being just 5 feet away from them will allow small home studios to think big. The same goes for what Genelec is doing. All of their larger scale systems including the newly announced 8381a is said to work even closer than 3 meters.

Why anyone would want to sit that close to those alien behemoth structures is beyond me… BUT, for someone looking into their different options out there, or is comforting knowing that if for some reason a person needs to sit 3.5 meters away, they will be far enough away from the minimum distance, which builds confidence

Edit: also, let’s say you are overhauling your studio or hi-fi listening space or moving to a small room or whatever comes up… knowing that you will be able to move your speakers in a continue on is a good safety net. Being able to slide the Kii three top off the BXT and record an album somewhere for a month and a half and bring them back and slide them right back on the BXT. This is underrated imo

Jacob Collier for example produces Grammy winning albums right from his home and he uses the Kii3 + BXT.

Sitting so close to and in front if these giant alien behemoths is not fun - until you turn them on.

I guess you could fix that with 3 box solutions but why complicate things?

I’d just get a sheer curtain or even better close my eyes.

 

[DMill]

Who knows how much we don’t know?

We know within human hearing what is accurate. What we don’t know is subjectively what is most pleasing. Nor will we ever know that, it’s completely up to each listener. I personally enjoy my Cary tube amp. But I understand many would find it to be a $4k waste of money full of distortion and noise. i still like it though, it glows, it’s cool and sounds better than you might think. But if we are talking about absolute fidelity, I’m quite sure it falls short of my Yamaha SS setup, which also sounds great. In short, it’s difficult to compare the two in my very humble home. And at most reasonable listening levels I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. When i push them hard at higher volumes I do believe I can hear a difference. But this is by no means science but just my subjective opinion.

 

[srrxr71]

We know within human hearing what is accurate. What we don’t know is subjectively what is most pleasing. Nor will we ever know that, it’s completely up to each listener. I personally enjoy my Cary tube amp. But I understand many would find it to be a $4k waste of money full of distortion and noise. i still like it though, it glows, it’s cool and sounds better than you might think. But if we are talking about absolute fidelity, I’m quite sure it falls short of my Yamaha SS setup, which also sounds great. In short, it’s difficult to compare the two in my very humble home. And at most reasonable listening levels I would be hard pressed to tell the difference. When i push them hard at higher volumes I do believe I can hear a difference. But this is by no means science but just my subjective opinion.

Yep at that point it’s maybe about how comfortable you are with the space.

 

[songOVERsound]

Jacob Collier for example produces Grammy winning albums right from his home and he uses the Kii3 + BXT.

Sitting so close to and in front if these giant alien behemoths is not fun - until you turn them on.

I guess you could fix that with 3 box solutions but why complicate things?

I’d just get a sheer curtain or even better close my eyes.

I’m on board with “why complicate things”

I didn’t know that Jacob Collier used the BXT’s, I thought he only used the tops.

I don’t see the Kii three is giant alien behemoths, I was actually referring to the new Genelec 8381a. But I bet the same would apply. I don’t care too much about looks but those speakers seem intimidating.

But since it’s been brought up, I think the Kii three/BXT aesthetics are extremely good. So much though that I would be skeptical that they chose looks over design - but I don’t think that’s the case.

It sounds like you have them?

 

[srrxr71]

I’m on board with “why complicate things”

I didn’t know that Jacob Collier used the BXT’s, I thought he only used the tops.

I don’t see the Kii three is giant alien behemoths, I was actually referring to the new Genelec 8381a. But I bet the same would apply. I don’t care too much about looks but those speakers seem intimidating.

But since it’s been brought up, I think the Kii three/BXT aesthetics are extremely good. So much though that I would be skeptical that they chose looks over design - but I don’t think that’s the case.

It sounds like you have them?

Yep exactly. No I have 8361 and w371. But I respect all options that are comparable. But my personal preference is point source. I feel I pay some price in SPL for that. But it’s fine. Just sit closer.

Anyway kii 3 bxt spec is lower on SPL.

 

[songOVERsound]

Yep exactly. No I have 8361 and w371. But I respect all options that are comparable. But my personal preference is point source. I feel I pay some price in SPL for that. But it’s fine. Just sit closer.

Anyway kii 3 bxt spec is lower on SPL.

Interesting. Yeah, I’d say you have the only thing out there currently that is comparable to the Kii three BXT combo.

What bass steering mode do you put your w371 in?

 

[srrxr71]

Interesting. Yeah, I’d say you have the only thing out there currently that is comparable to the Kii three BXT combo.

What bass steering mode do you put your w371 in?

I don’t. I use complementary mode.

 

[onion]

Sitting so close to and in front if these giant alien behemoths is not fun - until you turn them on.

I guess you could fix that with 3 box solutions but why complicate things?

I’d just get a sheer curtain or even better close my eyes.

Agree. I'm around 2m away from my Ones-W371a combo when listening. Even at that distance it feels 'wrong' to sit so close based on visual cues. Until the music starts playing

 

[songOVERsound]

The BXT seems a bit superior for small room low end management, as “line source” properties and also cardiod, whereas the W371a, you have to choose one or the other.

But I’m assuming a lot of the people here have rooms that are on the bigger side, so having both may not be necessary, but choosing one or the other might come in handy.

Genelec will probably be a bit more future proofed based on Genelec having a bit more practical software and also the ability to set speakers on top, will be able to use with future speakers that come out

 

[onion]

I did audition both Ones and Kii (without BXT/ W371) before taking the Genelec route. There was no question that The Ones was better in my smallish room; no amount of PEQ fiddling could get Kii close to Ones with GLM. Maybe Kii+BXT would be better than Ones+W371 but I don't think that shoot-out will happen in my room at least

 

[Purité Audio]

The Kiis are completely full range, and now they have built in PEQ, boundary adjustment and tone controls they are very adjustable , when I compared here to the 8351Bs the Gens just sounded smaller and that was only 2.5 metres away, good imaging though along with the LS60 the most pinpoint I have heard.
Even for a medium sized room I would go for the 8361.
Keith

 

[steve59]

Meridians don't hold their value anymore, trust me if interested buy used. If you were local I could send you home with my circa 2009 dsp8000 I upgraded to se in 2019, still over a year left on warranty wink. For a music lover Active is the way to go, designer has matched components so no chasing the perfect combo of components. For me going active was my solution for getting the best sound I could in a fixed budget, but the hobbyist in me, the guy that also enjoys the hardware got bored after a couple years and went back to passive. I love the music, but I also enjoy shiny new toys and had to admit to myself 'end game' was me giving myself permission to go over budget. My family knew I was full of crap I'm just catching up.

Legacy Aeris can be fully active although I think most prefer using their own amps for the mids and highs.

MKR, have you posted the size of the room/area the speakers are filling?

 

[MKR]

Meridians don't hold their value anymore, trust me if interested buy used. If you were local I could send you home with my circa 2009 dsp8000 I upgraded to se in 2019, still over a year left on warranty wink. For a music lover Active is the way to go, designer has matched components so no chasing the perfect combo of components. For me going active was my solution for getting the best sound I could in a fixed budget, but the hobbyist in me, the guy that also enjoys the hardware got bored after a couple years and went back to passive. I love the music, but I also enjoy shiny new toys and had to admit to myself 'end game' was me giving myself permission to go over budget. My family knew I was full of crap I'm just catching up.

Legacy Aeris can be fully active although I think most prefer using their own amps for the mids and highs.

MKR, have you posted the size of the room/area the speakers are filling?

@steve59 On the room size, yup. You have to go back to the very first post … 20'x40', with 10' ceiling. However, I may be building a new home and all that could change. But that’s what I have now.

As to Legacy Aeris being fully active, where do you get that info? Midwoofer on up are fully passive. Only the dual 12” drivers are “active”.

 

[steve59]

@steve59 On the room size, yup. You have to go back to the very first post … 20'x40', with 10' ceiling. However, I may be building a new home and all that could change. But that’s what I have now.

As to Legacy Aeris being fully active, where do you get that info? Midwoofer on up are fully passive. Only the dual 12” drivers are “active”.

Axpona 2022 I put a bid on the demo's and the demonstrator told me that pair was fully active! I was less than excited to learn that and returned an offer more reflective of their passive demo prices and was outbid by another person at the show.