$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[bo_knows]

I think on the video they said £60,000…toward the end. Or maybe $60,000.

Thanks, I didn't watch the video to the end but what I heard in the beginning (Phil Collins) was impressive!

$60,000 is impressive as well. LOL

 

[srrxr71]

Thanks, I didn't watch the video to the end but what I heard in the beginning (Phil Collins) was impressive!

$60,000 is impressive as well. LOL

Yeah I did enjoy listening to Phil Collins too after a long while! Sounded pretty darn good even on my iPhone.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi


One of the things that have made ASR a success, is that we put Science, thus determinism, in front. I understand that there remains som areas for which there hasn't been a lot of studies in particular the "presentation" or if you will the soundscape , for the lack of a better word, of some specific speakers. I tend to believe that bigger speakers provide, a bigger sound.. I must say however that in my small room (5 x 3 x 2.8 meters) my JBL LSR 308 by any accounts, a bookshelf speaker play bigger than I expected... so ...

When it comes to bass however... I am bothered by statements such as these...

My personal experience is that SVS is not as good with music. At least the two SVS subs I had/have, the music was good but I heard Rythmik was much better for music.

If the SVS subs, sb13 ultra and pb16 ultra performed well for music, I’d still have the PB16. The SB13 is in my “3rd” system in the basement - it’s good but not amazing good.

Holy crap - Trinnov! That’s a serious processor. I wonder if you hook up equipment that’s less than up to par, the Trinnov will just say “error, please try again with a better component”

IMHO, this kind of statement perpetuates myths that a given sub is good for music and another not, specifically that sealed subwoofers are better for music than ported subwoofers... Such statements need to be verified... need to be at least challenged... I was of that opinion, based on HEA myths , until I used cheap, ported subwoofers correctly integrated and frankly, for music a good subwoofer remains a good subwoofer, regardless of the alignment used, be it ported, sealed , passive radiator, bandpass, etc.. If the subwoofer/mains integration is good... I would venture that most subwoofers sound the same within the constraints of similar THD, FR and SPL capabilities ...

I am not putting word in @Lsc 's mouth, but you would hear from many subjective audiophiles that sealed subwoofers are for music and ported for HT, unless the ported are from Wilson Audio or other HEA darlings, in which case... these are for music and tuned/matched to the particular brand of HEA speakers... likely by ear...

I have no issues with the rest of the post, the Trinnov is indeed, a superb piece of equipment ... I hope one would not mess with it, by adding a JL Audio CR-1A to a rinnov Pre/Pro.. just because.

I am waiting for @MKR to make his announcements.

Peace.

 

[srrxr71]

Hi


One of the things that have made ASR a success, is that we put Science, thus determinism, in front. I understand that there remains som areas for which there hasn't been a lot of studies in particular the "presentation" or if you will the soundscape , for the lack of a better word, of some specific speakers. I tend to believe that bigger speakers provide, a bigger sound.. I must say however that in my small room (5 x 3 x 2.8 meters) my JBL LSR 308 by any accounts, a bookshelf speaker play bigger than I expected... so ...

When it comes to bass however... I am bothered by statements such as these...


IMHO, this kind of statement perpetuates myths that a given sub is good for music and another not, specifically that sealed subwoofers are better for music than ported subwoofers... Such statements need to be verified... need to be at least challenged... I was of that opinion, based on HEA myths , until I used cheap, ported subwoofers correctly integrated and frankly, for music a good subwoofer remains a good subwoofer, regardless of the alignment used, be it ported, sealed , passive radiator, bandpass, etc.. If the subwoofer/mains integration is good... I would venture that most subwoofers sound the same within the constraints of similar THD, FR and SPL capabilities ...

I am not putting word in @Lsc 's mouth, but you would hear from many subjective audiophiles that sealed subwoofers are for music and ported for HT, unless the ported are from Wilson Audio or other HEA darlings, in which case... these are for music and tuned/matched to the particular brand of HEA speakers... likely by ear...

I have no issues with the rest of the post, the Trinnov is indeed, a superb piece of equipment ... I hope one would not mess with it, by adding a JL Audio CR-1A to a rinnov Pre/Pro.. just because.

I am waiting for @MKR to make his announcements.

Peace.

I hear you. But even Rythmik repeats this. They even go as far as to say a ported sub sounds subjectively louder than the dB measurements would make it seem.

It’s not a hard and fast rule and sadly it is repeated as if it is.

I suppose if one wanted to make a woofer for loud deep bass sound effects perhaps it’s easier to do so with a ported design.

All my subs from Genelec designed for music are ported.

I mean it comes down to which group favors a brand and product development might go in the direction to please that group.

Of course if one wants to get deep into a purchase decision then data-bass is there to help you. But I can’t say it’s a bad rule of thumb.

 

[bo_knows]

Price?

How ignorant of me, the price is mentioned in the video (I just finished watching the whole thing).
60,000-65,000£ depending on the finish. What a bargain huh?

 

[MKR]

How ignorant of me, the price is mentioned in the video (I just finished watching the whole thing).
60,000-65,000£ depending on the finish. What a bargain huh?

Well, so much for that idea, but thanks for the heads up regardless!

HEA pricing has always been nuts, but the prices I saw at AXPONA were pure insanity. The arrogance and pretentiousness of many in this industry has truly reached new highs, which I didn’t think was possible.

Thank goodness there is plenty of amazing gear still remaining for us “peasants”, for now anyway. DIY starts to become more and more attractive!

 

[srrxr71]

Well, so much for that idea, but thanks for the heads up regardless!

HEA pricing has always been nuts, but the prices I saw at AXPONA were pure insanity. The arrogance and pretentiousness of many in this industry has truly reached new highs, which I didn’t think was possible.

Thank goodness there is plenty of amazing gear still remaining for us “peasants”, for now anyway. DIY starts to become more and more attractive!

Oh It’s possible and it always has been possible. It’s been like this forever. It would not surprise me in the least if some of them laughed at your budget.

That’s why I quit that scene.

 

[Lsc]

Hi


One of the things that have made ASR a success, is that we put Science, thus determinism, in front. I understand that there remains som areas for which there hasn't been a lot of studies in particular the "presentation" or if you will the soundscape , for the lack of a better word, of some specific speakers. I tend to believe that bigger speakers provide, a bigger sound.. I must say however that in my small room (5 x 3 x 2.8 meters) my JBL LSR 308 by any accounts, a bookshelf speaker play bigger than I expected... so ...

When it comes to bass however... I am bothered by statements such as these...


IMHO, this kind of statement perpetuates myths that a given sub is good for music and another not, specifically that sealed subwoofers are better for music than ported subwoofers... Such statements need to be verified... need to be at least challenged... I was of that opinion, based on HEA myths , until I used cheap, ported subwoofers correctly integrated and frankly, for music a good subwoofer remains a good subwoofer, regardless of the alignment used, be it ported, sealed , passive radiator, bandpass, etc.. If the subwoofer/mains integration is good... I would venture that most subwoofers sound the same within the constraints of similar THD, FR and SPL capabilities ...

I am not putting word in @Lsc 's mouth, but you would hear from many subjective audiophiles that sealed subwoofers are for music and ported for HT, unless the ported are from Wilson Audio or other HEA darlings, in which case... these are for music and tuned/matched to the particular brand of HEA speakers... likely by ear...

I have no issues with the rest of the post, the Trinnov is indeed, a superb piece of equipment ... I hope one would not mess with it, by adding a JL Audio CR-1A to a rinnov Pre/Pro.. just because.

I am waiting for @MKR to make his announcements.

Peace.

I understand where you are coming from but I didn’t generalize about sealed subs vs ported. One SVS sub that I still own is sealed and the other one I sold was ported.

We all have different experiences. My ported sub the SVS PB16 that I paid $2499 at the time (it’s gone up since)…I could never blend it well for music even in sealed mode. My sealed SVS sub the SB13-ultra blended much better than the PB16 but it lacked output. This is my own personal experience…I don’t have measurement devices or feel I need to hang my 175lbs sub 15 feet in the air etc..if someone doesn’t agree with my opinion then I don’t have a problem with it. It’s my $0.02. I like what I have and I enjoy it every day…

The CR-1 will be my next purchase along with a good preamp. I’m sure it’ll do a better job than my Emotiva XMC2 and Dirac for 2 channel listening…things sound good now but not as good as through a pure 2 channel system.

 

[Deleted member 57150]

I understand where you are coming from but I didn’t generalize about sealed subs vs ported. One SVS sub that I still own is sealed and the other one I sold was ported.

We all have different experiences. My ported sub the SVS PB16 that I paid $2499 at the time (it’s gone up since)…I could never blend it well for music even in sealed mode. My sealed SVS sub the SB13-ultra blended much better than the PB16 but it lacked output. This is my own personal experience…I don’t have measurement devices or feel I need to hang my 175 sub 15 feet in the air etc..if someone doesn’t agree with my opinion then I don’t have a problem with it. It’s my $0.02. I like what I have and I enjoy it every day…

The CR-1 will be my next purchase along with a good preamp. I’m sure it’ll do a better job than my Emotiva XMC2 and Dirac for 2 channel listening…things sound good now but not as good as through a pure 2 channel system.

I'd argue that output of the low end is largely overblown. When I had D&D 8Cs the calibrated low end almost sounded too faint, then I realized I'd been lying to myself about how loud and prominent bass levels should be. Natural sounding bass notes should be there but somewhat invisible.

I feel like this thread is starting to feel like a tease ⭕️ jerk. Is the purpose to get to a thousand pages, or pick out some speakers?!

 

[Lsc]

I'd argue that output of the low end is largely overblown. When I had D&D 8Cs the calibrated low end almost sounded too faint, then I realized I'd been lying to myself about how loud and prominent bass levels should be. Natural sounding bass notes should be there but somewhat invisible.

I feel like this thread is starting to feel like a tease ⭕️ jerk. Is the purpose to get to a thousand pages, or pick out some speakers?!

I agree with you. How my room is, when I run Dirac, measurements show that the room effect on the salon2 is between +12-14 dB between 22-30Hz. I lowered the the calibration of the bass from the recommended +12dB down to +6dB. Even still, salon2 + subs exceeds the perceived bass level of salon2 by itself with no calibration.

Bottom line is I get tons on bass just with salon2 but even more bass with the subs crossed over at 60Hz and Dirac room correction on.

I may trim the calibration of the salon2 to +4dB or even less. No tubby bass with the Gothams though….anyway, it’s what I prefer.

 

[MKR]

I'd argue that output of the low end is largely overblown. When I had D&D 8Cs the calibrated low end almost sounded too faint, then I realized I'd been lying to myself about how loud and prominent bass levels should be. Natural sounding bass notes should be there but somewhat invisible.

I feel like this thread is starting to feel like a tease ⭕️ jerk. Is the purpose to get to a thousand pages, or pick out some speakers?!

Far from a tease, no need to be so abrasive/crude. I am a very patient and detailed oriented person, tick off all the boxes, and I abhor buyer’s remorse (especially spending this kind of money!). So, I am in no rush in this quest, taking my time.

If the thread irritates you, don’t read it, free country

 

[mglobe]

Far from a tease, no need to be so abrasive/crude. I am a very patient and detailed oriented person, tick off all the boxes, and I abhor buyer’s remorse (especially spending this kind of money!). So, I am in no rush in this quest, taking my time.

If the thread irritates you, don’t read it, free country

But you OWE it to us to decide.

 

[MKR]

But you OWE it to us to decide.

Fully agree with that! You will know when I know, promise

 

[TimW]

Also, as I am more and more becoming enamored with cardioid bass to the lowest freq

I am leaning towards active designs (and no, NOT the “G” word )

Interesting, what made you change your mind about these aspects?

I remember suggesting earlier in the thread that cardioid bass would be something I would look for at your budget. You said something along the lines of not being convinced it had a real world benefit. Did your listening to speakers with various bass dispersion patterns like the Legacy and Panel speakers change your mind?

You were also leaning towards passive for the sake of long term reliability I believe. Did you hear some actives that made you change your mind?

Last I remember the Legacy speakers were at the top of your list, have I missed the addition of a new contender?

 

[benanders]

Hi


One of the things that have made ASR a success, is that we put Science, thus determinism, in front. I understand that there remains som areas for which there hasn't been a lot of studies in particular the "presentation" or if you will the soundscape , for the lack of a better word, of some specific speakers. I tend to believe that bigger speakers provide, a bigger sound.. …

Quick re-reality check that this site doesn’t often use science, per se. The site relies on equipment to make fairly standardized measurements of other equipment - that’s purely data collection - one step of the scientific method that can be done correctly or incorrectly (and here, both ways have been realized at various points).

Posters here often discuss science, but “original contributions” on ASR rarely venture past subjective extrapolations from a highly restricted population based on said measurements and ultimately bear minimal, if any, experimental design or analytical rigor on the level of a true study. In the interest of science, let’s keep ourselves honest.

It’s better than some other major sites that also let “just about anyone” post (some sites restrict postings to verified engineers or tradespersons only - that has its shortcomings but does provide a filter for superfluity and certain unnecessary arguments). This site is rather like the recent back-and-forth on line arrays on the previous page - they do not solve the “problem” they’re designed to address, but if used properly, can best address the “problem” of currently available options. So it is with ASR and the measurements published here or elsewhere (I can’t be the only person to think it would be more accurate were the website name AMIR - Audio Measurement Inspector’s Review).

Just remember - what any audio kit (particularly speakers) actually “does” must be distilled from behavioral (basically, consumer preference) studies that are generally lacking, or at least very limited, in (peer-reviewed) publications focused on advances in audio technology. Spins are a good example of a “best tool presently available” not equaling a rigorously controlled standard, despite their potential utility.

None of that is intended as a slight to this site or any individual participant on it. However, we still live in a world in which studies (let alone isolated comments or anecdotes) that aren’t peer reviewed are conventionally considered to be outside the realm of scientifically robust information.

This thread is a good example of ASR utility - it’s interesting as a public diary contrasting different opinions based on individual preferences and (often) contrasting past experiences. Many of those are anchored in some degree of objectivity despite being founded on diverse subjective preferences (in music listening). Collated anecdotes, if ya will. Those aren’t useless depending on what you want out of your online reading experience. But they ain’t often qualifiable as science.

May the speaker search resume…

 

[DMill]

Quick re-reality check that this site doesn’t often use science, per se. The site relies on equipment to make fairly standardized measurements of other equipment - that’s purely data collection - one step of the scientific method that can be done correctly or incorrectly (and here, both ways have been realized at various points).

Posters here often discuss science, but “original contributions” on ASR rarely venture past subjective extrapolations from a highly restricted population based on said measurements and ultimately bear minimal, if any, experimental design or analytical rigor on the level of a true study. In the interest of science, let’s keep ourselves honest.

It’s better than some other major sites that also let “just about anyone” post (some sites restrict postings to verified engineers or tradespersons only - that has its shortcomings but does provide a filter for superfluity and certain unnecessary arguments). This site is rather like the recent back-and-forth on line arrays on the previous page - they do not solve the “problem” they’re designed to address, but if used properly, can best address the “problem” of currently available options. So it is with ASR and the measurements published here or elsewhere (I can’t be the only person to think it would be more accurate were the website name AMIR - Audio Measurement Inspector’s Review).

Just remember - what any audio kit (particularly speakers) actually “does” must be distilled from behavioral (basically, consumer preference) studies that are generally lacking, or at least very limited, in (peer-reviewed) publications focused on advances in audio technology. Spins are a good example of a “best tool presently available” not equaling a rigorously controlled standard, despite their potential utility.

None of that is intended as a slight to this site or any individual participant on it. However, we still live in a world in which studies (let alone isolated comments or anecdotes) that aren’t peer reviewed are conventionally considered to be outside the realm of scientifically robust information.

This thread is a good example of ASR utility - it’s interesting as a public diary contrasting different opinions based on individual preferences and (often) contrasting past experiences. Many of those are anchored in some degree of objectivity despite being founded on diverse subjective preferences (in music listening). Collated anecdotes, if ya will. Those aren’t useless depending on what you want out of your online reading experience. But they ain’t often qualifiable as science.

May the speaker search resume…

This is certainly one of the most thoughtful and well articulated posts I’ve read in some time. I’m a bit lost in what you’re trying to say though. Are you saying current measurements only tell a part of the story? And are therefore not scientific? I suppose it then comes to a debate on semantics, which seems to me, a waste of time. We are talking about audio equipment and not who wins a debate club argument in high school.

 

[srrxr71]

I'd argue that output of the low end is largely overblown. When I had D&D 8Cs the calibrated low end almost sounded too faint, then I realized I'd been lying to myself about how loud and prominent bass levels should be. Natural sounding bass notes should be there but somewhat invisible.

I feel like this thread is starting to feel like a tease ⭕️ jerk. Is the purpose to get to a thousand pages, or pick out some speakers?!

It’s getting a bit Pearljamesque.

Always a fun time! I almost feel this is our social media.

MKR has always been gracious to let us go off topic and make this more interesting.

 

[srrxr71]

Quick re-reality check that this site doesn’t often use science, per se. The site relies on equipment to make fairly standardized measurements of other equipment - that’s purely data collection - one step of the scientific method that can be done correctly or incorrectly (and here, both ways have been realized at various points).

Posters here often discuss science, but “original contributions” on ASR rarely venture past subjective extrapolations from a highly restricted population based on said measurements and ultimately bear minimal, if any, experimental design or analytical rigor on the level of a true study. In the interest of science, let’s keep ourselves honest.

It’s better than some other major sites that also let “just about anyone” post (some sites restrict postings to verified engineers or tradespersons only - that has its shortcomings but does provide a filter for superfluity and certain unnecessary arguments). This site is rather like the recent back-and-forth on line arrays on the previous page - they do not solve the “problem” they’re designed to address, but if used properly, can best address the “problem” of currently available options. So it is with ASR and the measurements published here or elsewhere (I can’t be the only person to think it would be more accurate were the website name AMIR - Audio Measurement Inspector’s Review).

Just remember - what any audio kit (particularly speakers) actually “does” must be distilled from behavioral (basically, consumer preference) studies that are generally lacking, or at least very limited, in (peer-reviewed) publications focused on advances in audio technology. Spins are a good example of a “best tool presently available” not equaling a rigorously controlled standard, despite their potential utility.

None of that is intended as a slight to this site or any individual participant on it. However, we still live in a world in which studies (let alone isolated comments or anecdotes) that aren’t peer reviewed are conventionally considered to be outside the realm of scientifically robust information.

This thread is a good example of ASR utility - it’s interesting as a public diary contrasting different opinions based on individual preferences and (often) contrasting past experiences. Many of those are anchored in some degree of objectivity despite being founded on diverse subjective preferences (in music listening). Collated anecdotes, if ya will. Those aren’t useless depending on what you want out of your online reading experience. But they ain’t often qualifiable as science.

May the speaker search resume…

The truth is most of us (me included) are not bright enough to discuss the actual science of these. But also it’s way too complicated for someone who is not both and engineer and who spent years working on these specific problems.

Yeah we just measure and compare impressions and try to correlate basically.

 

[srrxr71]

This is certainly one of the most thoughtful and well articulated posts I’ve read in some time. I’m a bit lost in what you’re trying to say though. Are you saying current measurements only tell a part of the story? And are therefore not scientific? I suppose it then comes to a debate on semantics, which seems to me, a waste of time. We are talking about audio equipment and not who wins a debate club argument in high school.

I’ll let him answer that if he wishes to.

What I understood was yes basically we don’t know.

There is debate on phase linearity. We were lost until someone came in and provided a listening impression of phase correction being on or off.

I don’t know if we can get truly scientific when the ultimate arbiter is likely to found in the science of psychoacoustics.

Acoustics by necessity has been a centuries old endeavor. It has to have been. People have been gathering to watch plays and dances for centuries if not millennia.

Yet we just about 10 years got figured out what we now consider gospel here.

Who knows how much we don’t know?

Imagine you invested $100k in some system designed before all the Floyd O’ Toole knowledge we have and this is just from one major track of experimentation which relays on self reported preferences.

How far do you need to go? Brain scans? Would that be proper science? Would that settle all these debates? Probably even that wouldn’t be.

So this might always be a subjective field forever. We might have to consider that possibility.

It’s like when I took a few Econ classes. They impress upon you that economics can never be a science. You can’t experiment on populations like you can on chemicals.

You can’t deploy the scientific method on entire populations. Hypothesis, test design and result.

I mean these days i’m sure they do in video game economies. Those games have a team of economists on staff (insane where gaming is these days). But is it real? Can a bad decision cause you to starve? The stakes are the not the same. So it goes back to psychology. Economics and psychology are intertwined.

Then you find out the something like 90% or psychological studies have not been repeated or verified and the results are just the idiosyncrasies of the the test design. They can’t replicate most of it. When they try they get different results most of the time.

Human psychology might be like Heisenberg principle and likely it is.

Sure you can ABX but what factors were not recorded or even considered? Was lunch good? Was it bad? Did the room smell weird. Was it dark? Did it have that awful florescent lighting? All subjective factors.

Okay I guess you can say those were constant for A and B. Do you feel the same listening in a room full of strangers as you do at home on your couch? Does the environment makes everyone more analytical?

Might people feel differently on different level of comfort? It all depends on subjective preference. Where did you get your subjects from? What is their background?

 

[MKR]

Interesting, what made you change your mind about these aspects?

I remember suggesting earlier in the thread that cardioid bass would be something I would look for at your budget. You said something along the lines of not being convinced it had a real world benefit. Did your listening to speakers with various bass dispersion patterns like the Legacy and Panel speakers change your mind?

You were also leaning towards passive for the sake of long term reliability I believe. Did you hear some actives that made you change your mind?

Last I remember the Legacy speakers were at the top of your list, have I missed the addition of a new contender?

Great questions and good memory … Not sure what my exact words were, but I think primarily it was that you can achieve same performance with cardioid as you would with room treatment and well executed multi sub arrangement. As time went on and I researched more I started to realize that a proper design should not need room treatment! Or at least it should be minimal at best. Nor should you have to use a multi sub approach (this has its drawbacks no matter how much it is touted here). Cardioid resolves many of these requirements. This was purely academic. Then I heard the D&D 8C at AXPONA and I was convinced.

As to passive vs active, again, actives can do things no passive will ever be able to do. I see (and hear!) that now. Least of which is resolving the items mentioned above. But yes, I do have concerns about service if the electronics go south. But, that concern can be remedied mostly, albeit not 100%.

Finally, Legacy indeed remains at the top of the list, although it is only active in the bass section. As to other speakers on the list, the planars are up there for sure, though the ones I like are over my budget, so a complicating factor. With that said, the full dipole planars have a “sameness” of sound that they impart to every recording, great “wow” factor, but in the end not accurate for all recordings and I fear I may grow tired of it.

Heck, who knows, as long as this quest is taking, a fully active Salon 3 may be released to market