$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[Matt Bell]

Since I have pretty much arrived at my personal end game solution I have not set out to find an end game speaker and I haven't really considered price as I listen to all manner of speakers, but I think the $15K for a pair seems about right. After this you pay a lot for very incremental improvements.


Agreed again, and luckily for some hitting live music level peaks is either not desired or not possible due to their living situation so they do not need to wrestle with that. I am not a head banger, but I do occasionally "air it out" and having a system with virtually unlimited output capabilities is desirable for me and was a goal in my quest. This eliminates ALL small speakers regardless of cost.

This is also exactly where I'm at now, after a long-ish journey via several well-known (but not always good-sounding) speaker brands.

There's a cost for large speakers that are engineered to have flattish on-axis and smooth off-axis response and that don't get shouty when driven hard. That cost seems to be about $15K (GBP12K over this side of the pond).

Also, I do think that digital room EQ has made the task of finding the right speakers a bit simpler. We now know which speaker behaviours we can equalize and which we can't, and this makes the list of criteria for speaker choice a bit shorter.

 

[oozlum]

Also, I do think that digital room EQ has made the task of finding the right speakers a bit simpler. We now know which speaker behaviours we can equalize and which we can't, and this makes the list of criteria for speaker choice a bit shorter.

Can you please elaborate more toward this?

 

[symphara]

Can you please elaborate more toward this?

I think he means that with smooth directivity, FR can be EQed thus it's not super important to have a particular shape (e.g. flat).

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

An entertaining thread...
I believe that @MKR has thrown a few "Easter eggs" along the way. I gather from his posts that he favors a "big" presentation. Not a big-at-all-time-no-matter-what-the-source, presentation but a speaker system that can create the impression of "bigness" when the musical piece call for it. Some speakers can do big, but their presentation remains "big" when the musical piece calls for "small".. > In the subjective audio press they use to call this the "15-feet wide mouth", you the listener, know, it is a small instrument but it seems to span miles across the speakers .. This is not SPL related only. I don't think blind studies have been conducted on the issue, but I have the feeling that a Kii3 will not sound as "big" as say, a Revel Salon 2, under the same circumstances, i-e both F.R.-linearized, same SPL, in same room, with same treatment ... I insist that such "bigness" for the lack of a better word, is not about SPL only... You may notice , the constant use of the "", I have no other word to express that impression of scale ...

I don't think small , physically small speakers project the "big" factor well... It could only be a visual phenomenon, I need to see study on these but ...

I believe the speakers @MKR, ultimately chose will have that feature of "bigness" ... From there, we can infer .. or not?



Peace.

 

[steve59]

I leave brand/model names out when I don't have experience. The salon 2 didn't have a problem with 'scale' when I owned them although I've heard power amps that could effect that aspect of playback.

 

[FrankW]

I don't think blind studies have been conducted on the issue, but I have the feeling that a Kii3 will not sound as "big" as say, a Revel Salon 2, under the same circumstances, i-e both F.R.-linearized, same SPL, in same room, with same treatment ... I insist that such "bigness" for the lack of a better word, is not about SPL only... You may notice , the constant use of the "", I have no other word to express that impression of scale ..

MBLs I've heard have that "everything huge" type sound, my friends Martin Logans less so, my Revels even with upmixing can't quite match that front "scale". Toole did blind test near omni Mirages and a dipole Quad, but I doubt it was for "scale" specifically. OP seems to like big line array type speakers, 2 of which were Dipoles (videos above).

 

[IamJF]

@MKR - I'm late to the party and don't have time for the 122 pages . Do you already have posted a scetch and photos of your room?
"End game" means clearly 2 things:
*) Complete acoustic optimisation of the room! Not a few panels - REAL room acoustic design. In a normal room you can put whatever speaker in, you will never listen to the source material, always what the room is doing with it.
*) Double Bass Array. It is possible to get linear and even low frequencies over the complete room - but it takes some effort. It's the best low frequency sound you can get. And hey - you started with "end game"

I'm on the same mission for plenty of years now in a pretty small mixing/mastering room. And gone pretty far I belive. Even if my attempt is to extreme for casual music listening (non environment room) I will write a few details to the "perfect" speaker in your DIY thread.

 

[Soria Moria]

2k posts. Did he choose a system yet?

 

[fredoamigo]

I don't think small , physically small speakers project the "big" factor well... It could only be a visual phenomenon, I need to see study on these but ...

I think I know what you are talking about and it is the same impression as to pass to a televisor of 77 "" to a cinema and there is not has my knowledge of studies concerning this subject, but however, my hypothesis and that the sight dominates and influences each one of our senses the hearing, the smell, the taste, the touch and thus the fact of that to find itself in front of large or small loudspeakers should impact experience of listening...
there are also certainly other "physical" factors because listening to a bass drum with an 8" or a 15" is not really the same thing....and even closing your eyes .

 

[Cadguy]

The journey is more important than the destination. Wanting is more satisfying than having.

 

[Adi777]

The journey is more important than the destination. Wanting is more satisfying than having.

I doubt that's the OP's philosophy.

 

[Lsc]

The journey is more important than the destination. Wanting is more satisfying than having.

There is something about the chase that’s exciting.

 

[MarkS]

2k posts. Did he choose a system yet?

No. But Legacy Aeris appears to be the within-budget frontrunner.

 

[MattHooper]

There is something about the chase that’s exciting.

Having been on similar audio journeys I agree.

It’s certainly not for everyone. Some people are best served by simply looking for speakers with certain specs/measurements at a certain price. They may be happier bypassing all the trouble and make a purchase without auditioning speakers.

But for those of us who actually enjoy the auditioning process, and hearing different speakers and gear (which is also a nice opportunity to get out of the house, even travel sometimes), the hunt can be part of the fun.

I had an Audio pal who joined me on all sorts of long drives, including from canada to the USA, to audition gear and I have very fond memories from those trips.

 

[Lsc]

Having been on similar audio journeys I agree.

It’s certainly not for everyone. Some people are best served by simply looking for speakers with certain specs/measurements at a certain price. They may be happier bypassing all the trouble and make a purchase without auditioning speakers.

But for those of us who actually enjoy the auditioning process, and hearing different speakers and gear (which is also a nice opportunity to get out of the house, even travel sometimes), the hunt can be part of the fun.

I had an Audio pal who joined me on all sorts of long drives, including from canada to the USA, to audition gear and I have very fond memories from those trips.

I had always found the process to be somewhat challenging mainly because for most of my life I couldn’t afford the speakers I really wanted, then these “high end” brands blew the roof off of the prices. Plus dealing some dealers who were less than honest, for example one dealer tried to tell me that the most Revel allows is a 10% discount but he will try to squeeze a few more percentage points just for me and try ti sneak it past Revel. My buddy and I bought from another dealer for over double the discount %. Then I got stuck on the Revel train where I went from the F208 and F12 to F228Be and now the salon2. It was like no other brand was a consideration, especially given that I had to get the matching center.

So definitely not well traveled like you. And now, I just go to Axpona as an annual get out of the house and relax for a day event lol. Much more boring audio history than you hehe.

 

[benanders]

... I insist that such "bigness" for the lack of a better word, is not about SPL only... You may notice , the constant use of the "", I have no other word to express that impression of scale ...

Agree - sonic “scale” or “size” can’t be a product of SPL only, or there would necessarily be less diversity in sound among speakers.

I don't think small , physically small speakers project the "big" factor well... It could only be a visual phenomenon, I need to see study on these but ...

This involves multiple variables that’d be hard to tease apart.
Would require a pretty expansive and intricate experimental design.
Would also be impressive, if done correctly!

 

[Bugal1998]

Agree - sonic “scale” or “size” can’t be a product of SPL only, or there would necessarily be less diversity in sound among speakers.



This involves multiple variables that’d be hard to tease apart.
Would require a pretty expansive and intricate experimental design.
Would also be impressive, if done correctly!

I once mistakenly applied EQ designed for the uncorrected response to an already corrected response (prior eq was still active), and it made voices sound just massive.

I didn't realize what had happened until after additional changes had been made, so I wasn't able to go back and investigate what it was about the resulting response that imparted such a sense of scale... But the only variable was frequency response, so that's something.

 

[Ilkless]

Hi

An entertaining thread...
I believe that @MKR has thrown a few "Easter eggs" along the way. I gather from his posts that he favors a "big" presentation. Not a big-at-all-time-no-matter-what-the-source, presentation but a speaker system that can create the impression of "bigness" when the musical piece call for it. Some speakers can do big, but their presentation remains "big" when the musical piece calls for "small".. > In the subjective audio press they use to call this the "15-feet wide mouth", you the listener, know, it is a small instrument but it seems to span miles across the speakers .. This is not SPL related only. I don't think blind studies have been conducted on the issue, but I have the feeling that a Kii3 will not sound as "big" as say, a Revel Salon 2, under the same circumstances, i-e both F.R.-linearized, same SPL, in same room, with same treatment ... I insist that such "bigness" for the lack of a better word, is not about SPL only... You may notice , the constant use of the "", I have no other word to express that impression of scale ...

I don't think small , physically small speakers project the "big" factor well... It could only be a visual phenomenon, I need to see study on these but ...

I believe the speakers @MKR, ultimately chose will have that feature of "bigness" ... From there, we can infer .. or not?



Peace.

My suspicion is that "big"-ness is a composite of SPL capability, baffle step, distortion, FR.

The issue with the Kii is that, yes, the cardioid dispersion makes it acoustically behave like a much larger baffle, but this is achieved by cancellation of driver output. What this means is that HD by percentage vs the SPL of the fundamental is proportionately higher. And the drivers may be undergoing significant excursion with the associated nonlinearities, compression, IMD. That, plus unrealistic expectations on SPL in the bass IMO taint evaluations of a lot of these cardioid super-monitors. I appreciate @MKR's realism about this.

That aside, IMHO partly why wide-baffle speakers like the Devore Orangutan have such devoted followers is down to the lower baffle step than most conventional speakers, leading to less room interaction and more clarity (without resorting to bumping up the on-axis response) in the transition zone around Schroeder, which often falls crucially in the lower midrange where the fundamentals of numerous instruments and the human voice lie.

 

[benanders]

My suspicion is that "big"-ness is a composite of SPL capability, baffle step, distortion, FR.

The issue with the Kii is that, yes, the cardioid dispersion makes it acoustically behave like a much larger baffle, but this is achieved by cancellation of driver output. What this means is that HD by percentage vs the SPL of the fundamental is proportionately higher. And the drivers may be undergoing significant excursion with the associated nonlinearities, compression, IMD. That, plus unrealistic expectations on SPL in the bass IMO taint evaluations of a lot of these cardioid super-monitors. I appreciate @MKR's realism about this.

That aside, IMHO partly why wide-baffle speakers like the Devore Orangutan have such devoted followers is down to the lower baffle step of most conventional speakers, leading to less room interaction and more clarity (without resorting to bumping up the on-axis response) in the transition zone around Schroeder, which often falls crucially in the lower midrange where the fundamentals of numerous instruments and the human voice lie.

This is interesting. Any considerations for how the other variables of the five you mentioned might be interacting?
Very interesting…

 

[Ilkless]

Large drivers are generally narrower dispersion, plus need less excursion for a given SPL and frequency, usually -- which then generally yields lower distortion in all forms.

Plus, large drivers need to mounted on a larger baffle, which also means a lower baffle step (i.e. the output of the driver only "wraps" around the baffle towards the side and rear at a lower frequency).

There should be benefits in most semi-reflective/reflective domestic listening rooms, unless the dispersion of the driver becomes haphazard and excessively narrow to the point of stifling the sound.