$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[benanders]

Yup. Good for me, bad for Revel . Again, per my “sources”, the primary issue is the cabinets, which are incredibly expensive to manufacture. Actually, from what I have been told, Revel is barely breaking even at current dealer cost. They had/have a choice, raise the price on a 15 yr old design, which from a marketing perspective is a bad idea (no matter how good they sound), or come out with a new design with a better “value proposition”.

This scenario has literally played out for other speaker lines, full circle, and not with happy endings for said line(s) OR those who patiently waited for the new version(s). Insert dice roll gif here!

Also, and this is one thing that makes me sick about the high end industry, or any “luxury” product for that matter … Revels sales on the Salon 2 have actually gone down not due to the performance and quality, but because they are too cheap by high end audio standards! In other words, they aren’t expensive enough, so no way they can be as good as Wilsons, Raidho, Magico, insert crazy expensive speaker brand name, etc

I recall reading an interview with the emgineer of a beastly phono preamp I wanted to try some years back, the last big tube rig by Hagerman Labs. Low- to mid-four-figures IIRC.
Hagerman was asked something like: If you could change anything about it… what?
His answer in turn was something like: I should’ve charged $17,000 for it, so the audiophile community would take it seriously.

Hifi kit that make great price-to-performance statements often go unheard in audiophilia (pun!)

 

[Absolute]

Not being an acoustical engineer, but having heard multiple times the Salon’s and some of the JBL’s herein discussed, I’d reached the same assumption: if those 10” Salon drivers are firing the same signal, should be reason for their dramatic soundstage.
Amazing.
The 15” drivers on the JBL’s seemed to give a different kind of “impact” in the setups I heard (which all had some considerable level of room limitations).
Amazing.

A very talented speaker designer claimed the smaller the driver, the bigger the soundstage. I assume that’s been claimed more than once.
Countless folks of varying credibility have claimed bigger drivers offer greater “slam.” Boils down to which pro’s you perceive, and which pro’s you prefer, eh?

I'm a simple fellow, I believe in physics. The size of the driver relative to frequencies produced is the main factor for dispersion width and the relationship in both time and energy between direct and indirect sound is the largest factors to soundstage perception, so I see no reason to disagree here.

For slam and impact I believe the large JBL drivers have the simple benefit of being more directive further down due to much wider driver/cabinet. Given sufficient power handling and output capability and high enough direct/indirect sound ratio I don't believe there's any benefit to large drivers over smaller drivers in this department.
The Kii BXT module for example provides extreme amounts of impact and slam even with small and cheap drivers.

I wonder if there's a crossover point in-room where it's perceived beneficial to have a rather limited dispersion below it and a wider dispersion above it. If we look at polar plots of wide speakers like the 4367 and M2 vs more traditional designs like Kef Ref 1 and Arendal 1961 we get a clear visual of what I'm talking about;



The 4367 and M2 is wide above 1-1,5 khz and keeps the directive behavior and actually narrows a bit for a good while below while conventional designs turns from narrow to very wide. I've been leaning to the side of constant directivity all the way down to Schroeder could be the optimal, but perhaps a frequency dependent mix of dispersion could provide the best in-room results?
For me this is the most interesting area in audio reproduction and the one area where it's still up in the air where nobody really knows much.

 

[FrantzM]

Exactly. Sometimes the need to make a successor product is not that their heart is in it but rather to capitalize on a name.

Add to this: targeted market demands. So often, even here at ASR, you read things things like :" the <ZXXXX- Model 2> is 10 years old, it needs to be replaced". What is a for-profit company to do when it sees that? New model with "improved everything" and higher price, due to inflation, the pandemics, the current World order and the Supply-chain problems... BAM! A new, "moh' expensive thus better" speakers for 3 to 4 times the price of the original.

Not yet on the market for endgame, not yet... but I've never shied away from 2nd hand/used , especially for speakers

Peace.

 

[thewas]

I've been leaning to the side of constant directivity all the way down to Schroeder could be the optimal, but perhaps a frequency dependent mix of dispersion could provide the best in-room results?
For me this is the most interesting area in audio reproduction and the one area where it's still up in the air where nobody really knows much.

Fully agree and would also love to see some systematic research on this most important topic.

 

[Lsc]

Add to this: targeted market demands. So often, even here at ASR, you read things things like :" the <ZXXXX- Model 2> is 10 years old, it needs to be replaced". What is a for-profit company to do when it sees that? New model with "improved everything" and higher price, due to inflation, the pandemics, the current World order and the Supply-chain problems... BAM! A new, "moh' expensive thus better" speakers for 3 to 4 times the price of the original.

Not yet on the market for endgame, not yet... but I've never shied away from 2nd hand/used , especially for speakers

Peace.

I don’t think the for profit companies see that and react. They usually have a road map for production runs and model refreshes. This is because technology doesn’t stand still and whatever their model is, it’s to maximize profits.

And as far as speakers, you are right in that today’s state of the art become tomorrow’s last generation old speakers. But they work perfectly fine and last forever.

The salon2 is probably my end game speakers along with the voice2. But if the salon3 is something spectacular I just have to have…well based on speculation it’s still 1/2 the cost of my boys’ tuition which I still have several years left so Revel can take their time. I don’t need the temptation just yet .

 

[FrantzM]

I don’t think the for profit companies see that and react. They usually have a road map for production runs and model refreshes. This is because technology doesn’t stand still and whatever their model is, it’s to maximize profits.

And as far as speakers, you are right in that today’s state of the art become tomorrow’s last generation old speakers. But they work perfectly fine and last forever.

The salon2 is probably my end game speakers along with the voice2. But if the salon3 is something spectacular I just have to have…well based on speculation it’s still 1/2 the cost of my boys’ tuition which I still have several years left so Revel can take their time. I don’t need the temptation just yet .

Will not hijack the thread, I will answer to this:
Social Media has changed the way business are run. It used to be that the road was many years in advance based on market studies and tools like focus group and surveys. etc/// Now Social Media, the notion of "influencers" have changed that view. They listen, they read, they are careful , lest they disappear and are replaced by fleeter, more technology attuned/aware organizations.

I did hear the Revel Salon 2 back in the days when I was a subjective audiophile and found it then, superlative. It was then driven by the TOL of Mark Levinson electronics; I was utterly impressed, floored ... Yet at the time, I didn't consider it as my end game, some Magico was , not because it sounded better to my ears (it didn't) but because: 1) It was a Magico, darling of the HEA press and, 2) Substantially more expensive (almost thrice), and 3) Heavier and by far.. (Serious, I considered the mass of the speaker as a plus) ...
It was when, thanks to ASR, I acquired the JBL LSR 308 and subsequent ASR reviews of Revel speakers , then auditions of lesser Revel (among these a F35, a gem BTW)... that I began to see the Salon 2, as the sublime, yes , endgame transducer it is...

I am at a point in life where an endgame audio system is contemplated. I enjoy this thread immensely. It difficult for me to audition speakers of distinction. The OP is coming from a mindset similar to mine, and the budget is in line with what I may/could/you-never-know/hand-waving.... consider for a speaker system. This thread and numerous answers and @MKR reports, will remain to me a great search/resources./inspiration for when (not if) I decide to conduct similar..
I would add to that, ASR has changed my views on many things, even at the professional levels where I no longer go for the "generally admitted or the general views" but back to Audio .. I understand that it is very difficult to quantify preferences (Is speaker A, at $4000 , ten times better than speaker B at $400.oo???) Thread such as this would allow me to "see" better , choose better, potentially have a greater return on my investment: Someone has already blazed the trail.. Thanks again @MKR and others...
Still there

Peace.

 

[MKR]

Will not hijack the thread, I will answer to this:
Social Media has changed the way business are run. It used to be that the road was many years in advance based on market studies and tools like focus group and surveys. etc/// Now Social Media, the notion of "influencers" have changed that view. They listen, they read, they are careful , lest they disappear and are replaced by fleeter, more technology attuned/aware organizations.

I did hear the Revel Salon 2 back in the days when I was a subjective audiophile and found it then, superlative. It was then driven by the TOL of Mark Levinson electronics; I was utterly impressed, floored ... Yet at the time, I didn't consider it as my end game, some Magico was , not because it sounded better to my ears (it didn't) but because: 1) It was a Magico, darling of the HEA press and, 2) Substantially more expensive (almost thrice), and 3) Heavier and by far.. (Serious, I considered the mass of the speaker as a plus) ...
It was when, thanks to ASR, I acquired the JBL LSR 308 and subsequent ASR reviews of Revel speakers , then auditions of lesser Revel (among these a F35, a gem BTW)... that I began to see the Salon 2, as the sublime, yes , endgame transducer it is...

I am at a point in life where an endgame audio system is contemplated. I enjoy this thread immensely. It difficult for me to audition speakers of distinction. The OP is coming from a mindset similar to mine, and the budget is in line with what I may/could/you-never-know/hand-waving.... consider for a speaker system. This thread and numerous answers and @MKR reports, will remain to me a great search/resources./inspiration for when (not if) I decide to conduct similar..
I would add to that, ASR has changed my views on many things, even at the professional levels where I no longer go for the "generally admitted or the general views" but back to Audio .. I understand that it is very difficult to quantify preferences (Is speaker A, at $4000 , ten times better than speaker B at $400.oo???) Thread such as this would allow me to "see" better , choose better, potentially have a greater return on my investment: Someone has already blazed the trail.. Thanks again @MKR and others...
Still there

Peace.

@FrantzM Wonderfully stated sir, and thank you so much for your kind words. I truly am elated that some have benefited from this little adventure of mine. It was my intent from the beginning, albeit I had selfish motivation to be sure to get some expert direction, that this be a journey of many, not of one. And that has truly turned out to be the case, and then some! I would also like to extend my thanks to all of you for your wonderful contributions to what has become OUR little quest

 

[fredoamigo]

The short answer seems yes.
Whether it’s ultimately confirmed might depend on @MKR carrying on post-purchase, with room treatment updates…

There are no short answers, because the treatment or not that it is of the signal or the room and a dressing vis a vis the room and the interaction with the loudspeakers thus the choice of a direct radiator or a horn and its radiation is done according to the room and if you have a spinorama the things become simpler to determine your future critical distance with the precedence effect ideal .

 

[puppet]

I always gravitated toward loudspeakers that responded to what I listen to and how I listen. I don't think of music as "polite" and I don't listen to it that way. That artistic impression has to come through for me and a loudspeaker has to convey that in a clean manner.

 

[Lsc]

Will not hijack the thread, I will answer to this:
Social Media has changed the way business are run. It used to be that the road was many years in advance based on market studies and tools like focus group and surveys. etc/// Now Social Media, the notion of "influencers" have changed that view. They listen, they read, they are careful , lest they disappear and are replaced by fleeter, more technology attuned/aware organizations.

I did hear the Revel Salon 2 back in the days when I was a subjective audiophile and found it then, superlative. It was then driven by the TOL of Mark Levinson electronics; I was utterly impressed, floored ... Yet at the time, I didn't consider it as my end game, some Magico was , not because it sounded better to my ears (it didn't) but because: 1) It was a Magico, darling of the HEA press and, 2) Substantially more expensive (almost thrice), and 3) Heavier and by far.. (Serious, I considered the mass of the speaker as a plus) ...
It was when, thanks to ASR, I acquired the JBL LSR 308 and subsequent ASR reviews of Revel speakers , then auditions of lesser Revel (among these a F35, a gem BTW)... that I began to see the Salon 2, as the sublime, yes , endgame transducer it is...

I am at a point in life where an endgame audio system is contemplated. I enjoy this thread immensely. It difficult for me to audition speakers of distinction. The OP is coming from a mindset similar to mine, and the budget is in line with what I may/could/you-never-know/hand-waving.... consider for a speaker system. This thread and numerous answers and @MKR reports, will remain to me a great search/resources./inspiration for when (not if) I decide to conduct similar..
I would add to that, ASR has changed my views on many things, even at the professional levels where I no longer go for the "generally admitted or the general views" but back to Audio .. I understand that it is very difficult to quantify preferences (Is speaker A, at $4000 , ten times better than speaker B at $400.oo???) Thread such as this would allow me to "see" better , choose better, potentially have a greater return on my investment: Someone has already blazed the trail.. Thanks again @MKR and others...
Still there

Peace.

Yes you are right, I don’t disagree that social media has influenced things as it’s another form of consumer feedback. But clearly Revel hasn’t really listened as the request for Ultima3 line has been going on for nearly a decade .

Also, totally agree that ASR has been helpful to as well especially with DACs. I just bought a DAC for under $1k ($799) and I’m floored as to how good it performs. The weakest link in my system is my Emotiva XMC2 that I still think is very good but having a dedicated external DAC and using balanced in makes a big difference. I used to think that you have to spend at least $2k+ for a decent DAC and more like $4k+ for a state of the art DAC.

Lastly, I agree that this thread has been very helpful and informative. When you work from home and watch a lot of YouTube in the evenings, you start to get a little itchy for something new. Glad this thread helped me not pursue the 802D4. I’m also guilty of the weight thing, still. The 802D4 weighs over 194 lbs vs my salons that weigh 146 lbs so it may be better lol.

 

[benanders]

Yeah too many factors honestly. Like if your room is bad then you may want narrow dispersion. That’s the entire impetus behind audiophiles going for studio monitors.

I don’t really have any reference as I don’t go to cinemas. What I mean by produced music is pretty much everything that is mixed down from multi mic/multi track.

I figure the best perspective is from that mixing seat. Others may not agree. Other may have other needs. It’s always a compromise.

In reality if we could have 2-3 to end systems in the same room or even multiple setups I bet one would be a jazz room another a classical room and another an electronic music room. Each would have different end game speakers. The jazz and classical room might have BACCH-SP loaded

We just pick the best compromise I guess.

 

[srrxr71]

Classic Veblen goods.

The story of Rolex vs seiko is a very interesting one. Both were considered a working man’s watch at one point.

 

[MarkS]

That's a more complex story than you perhaps know; today, Grand Seiko and Credor (both divisions of Seiko) are considered high horology by watch enthusiasts, whereas Rolex is strictly "mid tier", because Rolex does not do any elaborate movement decoration or have any horologically difficult complications.

 

[srrxr71]

That's a more complex story than you perhaps know; today, Grand Seiko and Credor (both divisions of Seiko) are considered high horology by watch enthusiasts, whereas Rolex is strictly "mid tier", because Rolex does not do any elaborate movement decoration or have any horologically difficult complications.

I’m not claiming i’m big on it. I have friends who are huge into watches. I don’t even own one. I just like the story.

Yes I know about Grand Seiko. If I ever buy a high end watch it will be Grand Seiko.

I’m just talking about the pre quartz era and how the company reinvented itself through marketing and artificial scarcity.

The average person respects a Rolex more than a Grand Seiko.

I’ve seen the closeup videos of both. There is no comparison. The Grand Seiko is far better detailed.

However only 1% of people have a clue.

What really matters though? Sadly it’s the perception more than reality.

That sums up Veblen goods I guess.

 

[kiwifi]

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[Lsc]

That's a more complex story than you perhaps know; today, Grand Seiko and Credor (both divisions of Seiko) are considered high horology by watch enthusiasts, whereas Rolex is strictly "mid tier", because Rolex does not do any elaborate movement decoration or have any horologically difficult complications.

I’ll take a Rolex Submariner Date please. And if you have the Daytona white in SS, that’s the other one.

Unfortunately I missed the boat when I got married, my wife said I can get the Rolex but instead I asked for the Omega Seamaster “Bond” watch. I think back then it was like $3600-3800 for the Rolex retail. Now it’s over $10k. Unless I win the lottery, it’s too rich for my blood. I’ll stick with the Apple Watch .

 

[MattHooper]

'tis a law written in to the universe: all audiophile threads, if long enough, devolve in to talk about watches....

 

[Emlin]

'tis a law written in to the universe: all audiophile threads, if long enough, devolve in to talk about watches....

And which is and witches...

 

[Mr. Widget]

'tis a law written in to the universe: all audiophile threads, if long enough, devolve in to talk about watches....

Watches? If we are going off topic and talking Daytonas.

 

[Emlin]

Watches? If we are going off topic and talking Daytonas.

View attachment 262073

We are not.