• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

Status
Not open for further replies.
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
I don’t blame you. The system sounds amazing. However if you prefer wide dispersion I don’t think this is the right system for you. It’s good for one position only. In fact that’s its USP.

Now talking about the service i’m shocked by it.

The amps do come out easily. It took me about 5 minutes to get each out. But the issue I feel are the drive units, especially that front driver. If you find any speaker with a drive unit not up to spec then it’s the same drive unit replacement circus whether active or passive.

I was very surprised by the lackadaisical support experience of Genelec. Revel will likely treat you like you bought a flagship product from them. Genelec treats you like you bought anything in their line up.

After some wrangling they felt like overnighting things to me. I even contacted my dealer and they are not even keeping my dealer in the loop.

I feel like there will be another month of saga on this.
I have been following your saga, so very sorry, fully unacceptable to be treated this way, especially when as you say you purchased a flagship product.

Really hope this is resolved soon so you can get back to enjoying your system!
 

srrxr71

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 4, 2020
Messages
1,581
Likes
1,243
I have been following your saga, so very sorry, fully unacceptable to be treated this way, especially when as you say you purchased a flagship product.

Really hope this is resolved soon so you can get back to enjoying your system!
Yes parts fail and I guess maybe I called Genelec USA first I would have had faster service.

The part replacement part was pretty easy in the larger scheme of things.

They also replaced some things to make me feel they are taking the distortion issue seriously but I somehow doubt that will solve the problem. I will know tomorrow so let’s see.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MKR
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
For “punch in the gut” you definitely need to listen to one of the JBL 15” woofers. Some subjective comments about the three are noted here (if you don’t worry about being biased)

So the dual 12” in the Legacy Focus SE or Aeris don’t count, only JBL 15”?
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,866
Likes
5,953
So the dual 12” in the Legacy Focus SE or Aeris don’t count, only JBL 15”?

Sort of. There is a bit of truth to the JBL West Coast sound, and the low TCR wire in the M2 and 4367 is a bit special. The Everest has twin 15” without the TCR wire.

Take a look at this post:

Post in thread 'Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...e-4367-a-surprise-for-sure.36140/post-1271641
 

Lsc

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
406
Likes
383
Sort of. There is a bit of truth to the JBL West Coast sound, and the low TCR wire in the M2 and 4367 is a bit special. The Everest has twin 15” without the TCR wire.

Take a look at this post:

Post in thread 'Heard a Revel and JBL Synthesis for the first time: F208, F228Be, 4367. A surprise for sure!'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...e-4367-a-surprise-for-sure.36140/post-1271641
I guess the question is when evaluating end game speakers, how important is one particular characteristic vs. the overall sound quality and everything factored in the decision making process.

I have a pair of now legacy Klipsch Forte II whose dynamics exceed all other speakers I’ve owned since I bought these guys back in 1993. I break it out every couple years but then I put ‘‘em back as decoration in my office.

The salons are not last word in dynamics and bass but it’s up there where given its accuracy and other characteristics, it’s tough to equal.
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,866
Likes
5,953
I guess the question is when evaluating end game speakers, how important is one particular characteristic vs. the overall sound quality and everything factored in the decision making process.

I have a pair of now legacy Klipsch Forte II whose dynamics exceed all other speakers I’ve owned since I bought these guys back in 1993. I break it out every couple years but then I put ‘‘em back as decoration in my office.

The salons are not last word in dynamics and bass but it’s up there where given its accuracy and other characteristics, it’s tough to equal.

Agree 100% with that statement. Salon2's are pretty much overall best-of-class speakers. The fact that @MKR likes it is a good position to be in. At this point, I think it's less critical to listen for other speakers aiming for the same sort of characteristics and look at a few outliers to see if he is someone who prefers giving up a bit of "X" to get "Y". If the M2/4367/Everest don't change his opinion, then I would say, go all in with the Salon2's and enjoy the music!
 
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
I guess the question is when evaluating end game speakers, how important is one particular characteristic vs. the overall sound quality and everything factored in the decision making process.

I have a pair of now legacy Klipsch Forte II whose dynamics exceed all other speakers I’ve owned since I bought these guys back in 1993. I break it out every couple years but then I put ‘‘em back as decoration in my office.

The salons are not last word in dynamics and bass but it’s up there where given its accuracy and other characteristics, it’s tough to equal.
Maybe the Salons can’t quite compare to a compression driver in terms of dynamics, but regarding them not being the “last word” in bass, this is one of the very characteristics the Salon 2 is known for, and it is extraordinary. Speaking from direct experience of course! Also, Salon 2 is -3dB at 23Hz, 4367 is -6dB at 30Hz (couldn’t find -3dB figure), and M2 is -3dB at 20. Salon is easily in the game here. So I am really not sure what you are talking about. Also, while not the equal of the 4367 or M2 compression driver as it relates to dynamics, I have extensive experience with the JBL Studio 590 and it is a very good design and compression driver, and I can assure you it is not the equal of the Salon 2 dynamics.

By the way, I assume you have extensive experience with the Salon 2 to be making such claims? I don’t have a dog in the hunt at this point, no agenda, don’t own any of these yet, but let’s try to stay somewhat objective please :)
 

srrxr71

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 4, 2020
Messages
1,581
Likes
1,243
I like the idea of being objective. Were you able to get them into 115dBC?

I was reading the Kii 3 + BXT specs (don’t ask me why I felt like looking at them :D)

It seems those can handle a steady state of 110dBC only. Even the peaks are said to be around 115dBC. I wonder if there is standard for that measurement.

How short is a peak? How is it defined?

Could you use REW to measure distortion at various levels?

I’m planning on reporting those numbers so people have an idea how much they can reasonably expect from these systems at 100, 105, 110, 115 dBC @ 1m. For example.
 
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
I like the idea of being objective. Were you able to get them into 115dBC?

I was reading the Kii 3 + BXT specs (don’t ask me why I felt like looking at them :D)

It seems those can handle a steady state of 110dBC only. Even the peaks are said to be around 115dBC. I wonder if there is standard for that measurement.

How short is a peak? How is it defined?

Could you use REW to measure distortion at various levels?

I’m planning on reporting those numbers so people have an idea how much they can reasonably expect from these systems at 100, 105, 110, 115 dBC @ 1m. For example.
Great questions of course :)

I for one would love to see those numbers for your system, and I commit to doing same for mine! When I actually purchase something of course, someday :p
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,866
Likes
5,953
Salon is easily in the game here. So I am really not sure what you are talking about.

This is where is is helpful to listen. The DD65000 goes lower on the anechoic measurement than the DD67000 but the DD67000 has a different “impact” to it. The -6 dB is only 45Hz for the dual 15” of the DD67000’s!

Salon2 goes deep, no doubt — but even Amir talks about “dynamics” being different between the 4367 and the M2.

Post in thread 'Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ween-jbl-m2-and-revel-salon-2.1844/post-47012

I have extensive experience with the JBL Studio 590 and it is a very good design and compression driver, and I can assure you it is not the equal of the Salon 2 dynamics.
But just for fairness, Studio 590 compression driver is a $57 part


The Salon2 tweeter is $283 used.
90C924B1-3782-4C37-A25E-540DD8909E0F.jpeg


M2/4367 compression driver is $375 new

My understanding is that the current production of the DD67000 uses this instead of the original JBL manufactured one and is north of $1200.


If you look at the Revel Concerta -> Performa -> Performa Be -> Ultima line the same is true for the JBL 1”, 2”, 3”, 4” compression drivers. Size is not the real reason for tiers — it’s that the 3” and 4” compression drivers are ALSO built to higher performance and costs.
 

srrxr71

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 4, 2020
Messages
1,581
Likes
1,243
Great questions of course :)

I for one would love to see those numbers for your system, and I commit to doing same for mine! When I actually purchase something of course, someday :p
Haha yes I’ll work on those hopefully next week.

In the meantime apparently I have some back and forth with Genelec.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MKR

benanders

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2022
Messages
391
Likes
411
Location
Hong Kong SAR
I like the idea of being objective. Were you able to get them into 115dBC?

I was reading the Kii 3 + BXT specs (don’t ask me why I felt like looking at them :D)

It seems those can handle a steady state of 110dBC only. Even the peaks are said to be around 115dBC. I wonder if there is standard for that measurement.

How short is a peak? How is it defined?

Could you use REW to measure distortion at various levels?

I’m planning on reporting those numbers so people have an idea how much they can reasonably expect from these systems at 100, 105, 110, 115 dBC @ 1m. For example.

I’m still looking for a clear, concise explanation of why anyone / any standard prioritizes such high SPL from in-home speakers.

For many youthful years I probably… surely… almost certainly damaged my hearing by substituting high SPL on speakers in place of the unachievable size perception of some live music venues.

Non-point-source speakers that cause (or reproduce) “tall” sonic imagery - wall of sound, anyone? - and extraordinary point sources that successfully reproduce sonic imagery well above their height both sufficiently make up for lower in-home volume than when you’re halfway back at a live ZZ Top or Rob Zombie show, so my senses say.

Is it that other folks are doing the same thing - upping their speakers’ SPL to drastic levels, to achieve sensation caused in part by other variables in the real ( = concerts ) world? I ask because seems to me almost no consumer music is dynamic enough to justify such high peaks; for music with a DR of say 15 on speakers with a peak of 115 dB… ya know??
At those levels, it’s just ouch! I’m not even talking personal opinion-wise, but simply biologically!! :p

Maybe I’ve lived in a land of relatively small dwellings for too long, and don’t appreciate that such speakers are, for whatever reason(s), being manufactured for room sizes approaching the size of a middle school gymnasium? I gotta be missing some basic understanding.

Can’t wait to see how small a fraction of a nanosecond the >100 dB peaks are occupying… HOPEfully, ha!
 
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
This is where is is helpful to listen. The DD65000 goes lower on the anechoic measurement than the DD67000 but the DD67000 has a different “impact” to it. The -6 dB is only 45Hz for the dual 15” of the DD67000’s!

Salon2 goes deep, no doubt — but even Amir talks about “dynamics” being different between the 4367 and the M2.

Post in thread 'Shootout between JBL M2 and Revel Salon 2'
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ween-jbl-m2-and-revel-salon-2.1844/post-47012


But just for fairness, Studio 590 compression driver is a $57 part


The Salon2 tweeter is $283 used.
View attachment 261648

M2/4367 compression driver is $375 new

My understanding is that the current production of the DD67000 uses this instead of the original JBL manufactured one and is north of $1200.


If you look at the Revel Concerta -> Performa -> Performa Be -> Ultima line the same is true for the JBL 1”, 2”, 3”, 4” compression drivers. Size is not the real reason for tiers — it’s that the 3” and 4” compression drivers are ALSO built to higher performance and costs.
Cost does not always directly correlate to performance, so not the best argument, but point taken :)
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,866
Likes
5,953
Cost does not always directly correlate to performance, so not the best argument, but point taken :)
Yeah but within the same company that is known for engineering and science… :)

I am 99% sure the right choice for you is the Salon2. They go out of stock quickly and supply chain remains tight. Listening to the M2/4367 is just to test the 1% possibility
 
  • Like
Reactions: MKR

srrxr71

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 4, 2020
Messages
1,581
Likes
1,243
I’m still looking for a clear, concise explanation of why anyone / any standard prioritizes such high SPL from in-home speakers.

For many youthful years I probably… surely… almost certainly damaged my hearing by substituting high SPL on speakers in place of the unachievable size perception of some live music venues.

Non-point-source speakers that cause (or reproduce) “tall” sonic imagery - wall of sound, anyone? - and extraordinary point sources that successfully reproduce sonic imagery well above their height both sufficiently make up for lower in-home volume than when you’re halfway back at a live ZZ Top or Rob Zombie show, so my senses say.

Is it that other folks are doing the same thing - upping their speakers’ SPL to drastic levels, to achieve sensation caused in part by other variables in the real ( = concerts ) world? I ask because seems to me almost no consumer music is dynamic enough to justify such high peaks; for music with a DR of say 15 on speakers with a peak of 115 dB… ya know??
At those levels, it’s just ouch! I’m not even talking personal opinion-wise, but simply biologically!! :p

Maybe I’ve lived in a land of relatively small dwellings for too long, and don’t appreciate that such speakers are, for whatever reason(s), being manufactured for room sizes approaching the size of a middle school gymnasium? I gotta be missing some basic understanding.

Can’t wait to see how small a fraction of a nanosecond the >100 dB peaks are occupying… HOPEfully, ha!
I’ll be honest with you. For me this is so addictive I’d rather not on a work night.

So I tend to save it for weekends.

When i do I go loud.

The main point I made in my post above the w371 holy grail thread on this topic is that it depends on the music.

All these numbers are dBC. So that could mean a lot of different things in dBA. Someone who’s listening to flute music is going to suffer at these levels in a horrible way.

But these sound do good I started listening to more post 2004 electronic music. Even arguably many “rock” songs are very electronic in nature these days.

So that high dBC with a lot of bass and midbass and the typical modern muted mids is nowhere near unpleasant in dBA.

If you do the conversion it’s really not that much. It’s nowhere a concert (but at times it can be :D)

It’s pretty reasonable to have maybe 4 hours of that on a Saturday night. Add a round here and there and one’s desire for (mostly hehe) distortion free music is almost limitless.

The issue here is that the distortion is in a very audible band and can be perceived during a few songs. It pops on a song with deep tight beats and presents as spurious midrange “thwacks”.

I’ll try to post some video of such a song and what that sounds like.

I can admit that while Coldplay “magic” demonstrates the issue well it is actually not audible at all with all drivers playing.

There are other songs during which you can hear that distortion clearly. I find it unacceptable especially the midrange nature of it and it’s coming from the front midbass driver.

Also maybe i’m going deaf and I need higher SPL? :D

It just has to hit the spec. Some people might want to use these in HT setups (and Genelec likes to market for those purposes) and with 10 seats and the rear seats might be 4-5m away. So the point still stands that these must meet their published spec or it’s just going to lead to disappointment if someone relied on them.

Edit: sorry I forgot which thread i’m on. I just reply from the bell on the upper right bell. Please ignore all the Genelec references and to those of my issues. More detail is on the w371 holy grail thread for those curious about that.
 
Last edited:

Lsc

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2020
Messages
406
Likes
383
Maybe the Salons can’t quite compare to a compression driver in terms of dynamics, but regarding them not being the “last word” in bass, this is one of the very characteristics the Salon 2 is known for, and it is extraordinary. Speaking from direct experience of course! Also, Salon 2 is -3dB at 23Hz, 4367 is -6dB at 30Hz (couldn’t find -3dB figure), and M2 is -3dB at 20. Salon is easily in the game here. So I am really not sure what you are talking about. Also, while not the equal of the 4367 or M2 compression driver as it relates to dynamics, I have extensive experience with the JBL Studio 590 and it is a very good design and compression driver, and I can assure you it is not the equal of the Salon 2 dynamics.

By the way, I assume you have extensive experience with the Salon 2 to be making such claims? I don’t have a dog in the hunt at this point, no agenda, don’t own any of these yet, but let’s try to stay somewhat objective please :)
Don’t get me wrong here. I thought I was being objective in saying that there are other speakers that may be better in one area or another but taken as a whole the salon2 is one outstanding speaker.

I’m not the type to “defend the honor” of what I own and I don’t ever try to convince anyone, after all it’s their own personal opinion. What someone else thinks has zero impact on me listening to my salon2 every day thinking this is one amazing speaker.

So I was just saying in general there could be speakers with better dynamics or bass. But that doesn’t discount the huge sound that these babies throw with plenty of dynamics and bass to boot. Also don’t forget they look pretty nice too. Looks is actually one of the reasons I upgraded from the F228Be.
 

benanders

Senior Member
Joined
Nov 12, 2022
Messages
391
Likes
411
Location
Hong Kong SAR
All these numbers are dBC. So that could mean a lot of different things in dBA.

And that “basic understanding” I gotta be missing… C vs A scale. How I missed that Crucial letter x4 in your post, sigh.

So that high dBC with a lot of bass and midbass and the typical modern muted mids is nowhere near unpleasant in dBA.

Yes.

Also maybe i’m going deaf and I need higher SPL? :D
A not uncommon condition, I suspect. :D:D
 
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
Don’t get me wrong here. I thought I was being objective in saying that there are other speakers that may be better in one area or another but taken as a whole the salon2 is one outstanding speaker.

I’m not the type to “defend the honor” of what I own and I don’t ever try to convince anyone, after all it’s their own personal opinion. What someone else thinks has zero impact on me listening to my salon2 every day thinking this is one amazing speaker.

So I was just saying in general there could be speakers with better dynamics or bass. But that doesn’t discount the huge sound that these babies throw with plenty of dynamics and bass to boot. Also don’t forget they look pretty nice too. Looks is actually one of the reasons I upgraded from the F228Be.
@Lsc Your post happened to be about as objective as they come, shame on me for assuming otherwise, now I see it given the additional context you provided. I stand corrected sir, really appreciate your perspective, especially as a Salon 2 owner! Now you have opened the flood gates and I have several questions for you :D

What other speakers did you audition in your “quest” and what were your thoughts?
Sounds like you also heard the JBLs?
What is size of your room and what “nuclear power station” are you using to drive the very inefficient Salons?
Do you use the Salons for home theater and if so do you happen to have the Voice 2? Thoughts on that speaker as a center channel?
Are you crossing over the Salons (80Hz?) and running multiple subs, or running full range?

Thats it for now, but I am sure I will think of others ;)

Thank you
 
OP
M

MKR

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 18, 2022
Messages
1,462
Likes
2,114
Location
USA
Yeah but within the same company that is known for engineering and science… :)

I am 99% sure the right choice for you is the Salon2. They go out of stock quickly and supply chain remains tight. Listening to the M2/4367 is just to test the 1% possibility
Fair point!

As to stocking and supply chain, agreed, but I have a pair of Salon 2s locked up, so no issue there. With that said, dealer won’t hold them for me forever, so the clock is ticking for sure! If I miss this chance for brand new pair of Salons, very high possibility there will not be another (they are officially being discontinued in 2023, so no guarantee at all there will be another production run)
 

GXAlan

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jan 15, 2020
Messages
3,866
Likes
5,953
Fair point!

As to stocking and supply chain, agreed, but I have a pair of Salon 2s locked up, so no issue there. With that said, dealer won’t hold them for me forever, so the clock is ticking for sure! If I miss this chance for brand new pair of Salons, very high possibility there will not be another (they are officially being discontinued in 2023, so no guarantee at all there will be another production run)

How hard is it to get the 4367 or M2 for a listen? Would your dealer be able to get a 4367 with you pretty much walking away with either that or the Salon2?

Again, 99% sure the Salon2 is your choice but hard to ignore these kinds of posts and not be the slightest bit curious…


 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom