$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[MKR]

House of Flying Daggers Soundtrack (Stereo)
The Echo Game

Crazy stress test of intermodulation effects for bass. I don’t know of any other test track that is as easily reproducible and ABX’able.

@GXAlan Great stuff, thank you sir, will check out this one for sure

 

[MKR]

I highly recommend using music you enjoy and are familiar with rather than something someone else thinks is good. There is no point testing Fast Car if you dont like Traci Chapmen and mostly listen to Black Sabbath. From artists you like pick 3 tracks. One that is heavy in bass, one that has prominent vocals, and one all rounder. i find any more than that completely confuses the issue and you start to second guess what you’re hearing. Plus, you just don’t have the time. You want to be able to hear the same track (or even better part of track) on different speakers with as little time elapsed as possible.

Of course, this is obvious, only asking for some additional material that maybe I have overlooked

 

[MKR]

I think you should use the music that YOU are most familiar with... music that showcases the aspects you describe is right on, but ideally you will use material that you have listened to for years on numerous systems.

Again, obvious and a given, but thanks regardless

 

[steve59]

Did that years ago, how do you think I am able to afford $30k speakers?

There's something to be said for that.

 

[dtaylo1066]

Did that years ago, how do you think I am able to afford $30k speakers?

Presumed so, but could not resist.

 

[puppet]

Maybe Mr. Widget can say: What happens to the loudspeakers when wealthy people upgrade? Are their old ones traded in ... like an old car?

 

[Mr. Widget]

Maybe Mr. Widget can say: What happens to the loudspeakers when wealthy people upgrade? Are their old ones traded in ... like an old car?

Every case is different. Occasionally they are sold on eBay, but frequently there is a friend of a friend or someone's assistant who gets them as a gift.

Luckily speakers are not outdated like so much of the video gear... we have had to e-waste so many incredibly expensive projectors in recent years but there is just not much interest in a projector weighing several hundred pounds that requires a dedicated AC unit. Other than for a museum, why would you want one when a $5,000 Sony or JVC will blow it away and doesn't need a dedicated projector room.

 

[benanders]

House of Flying Daggers Soundtrack (Stereo)
The Echo Game

Crazy stress test of intermodulation effects for bass. I don’t know of any other test track that is as easily reproducible and ABX’able.

Since you are investing $30k into speakers…

Step 1: Buy the Blu-Ray and watch the scene in your home theater. In 5.1, you don’t have to worry as much about intermodulation since each speaker is reproducing a single drum. This tells you what the reference is supposed to be. You get great clarity EVEN WITH mid fi home theaters.

If you don’t want to buy the movie, just believe me that each individual drum hit should be clean and clear.

Step 2: Using the CD or lossless streaming sound track, listen to the same thing and high to moderately high volumes.

I *used* to think that the CD was a horrible master until I got the JBL 4319. In most systems, in stereo, it sounds like a jumbled mess compared to the surround version, especially the latter part of the track.

When I introduced the JBL 4319 into my system, it was incredible how close the stereo reproduction came to the surround reproduction. I have confirmed this with the 708P as well at lower volumes. This is the 4319 at 96 dB does really well with bass, particularly with low 3rd order harmonics.

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Admittedly, you may not listen to this song all the time but if you are spending 30k, it seems like passing this at 96 dB makes sense.

And even though the JBL 4319 does great against the Genelec and Neumann, the Revel F328Be is better at this low level control of distortion. I haven’t listened to this track on the Revel.

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What I like about this track is that a plain “mid tier” home theater with Studio 530/Revel M106 level speakers and a budget subwoofer is clean. It is easy to know what the truth should be.

It takes a silly high end system to reproduce the same clarity in stereo.

Edit: And remember that 96 dB for a bass heavy track is probably closer to 76 dB for the rest of the music. So even though long term 96 dB listening is bad for your hearing, long term 76 dB listening with 96 dB bass peaks is probably less risky (* not actual medical advice just opinion*).

Great post, @GXAlan , but 96 dB is quite loud, even just for peaks, if in a daily home environment.

 

[onion]

So my conclusion is - if you have a well treated room, capable of controlling LF of <60-70 hz, then there is little need for the w371a. For more SPL only, there are likely more cost-effective options that provide similar results.

My current setup (8341a + 7360s + room) controls LF below 70Hz well. I thought the W371a is more for controlling LF in the range 50 - 500Hz? My room issues not fixed by multi subs are in the 100-500Hz range. In addition, I'm interested to see how the cardioid nature of the W371a and the low reflection mode will work with Bacch4Mac.

 

[mglobe]

Howdy all

Will be taking an audition trip later next week (finally!) and was curious as to what everyone likes for audition reference recordings? Of course I have my own list, but would be great to see some new recommends from y’all that maybe I have overlooked. Looking for the usual genres … Female voice, male voice, chamber, orchestral/classical, soundtracks, rock, folk, electronic, acoustic rock, etc. And also tracks that are good for checking the usual sonic characteristics … sibilance, neutrality/accuracy, low freq, imaging, soundstage, instrument separation, walking bass line, pipe organ, mid range accuracy, “air” around instruments, dispersion, etc

Single recordings that capture as many of the typical critical characteristics as possible are best … best case one recording that captures everything would be outstanding, but I am not aware of such a recording.

Thanks again all for accompanying me on this journey

I agree with the comments about listening to what you know and like, but since you asked:

Jimi Hendrix Electric Lady Land — the side with Rainy Day Dream Away
Shawn Colvin Cover Girl — Killing the Blues
Tom Waits Nighthawks At The Diner — Warm Beer and Cold Women
Dave Brubeck We‘re All Together Again for the First Time — Take Five
Pink Floyd Meddle — Echos
Wycliff Gordon Boss Bones — Another Slow One

 

[nstzya]

Just discovered these … anyone have any direct experience with below offerings from Starke Sound?

starkesound Product Details

Home Theater Subwoofer,Best Subwoofer,12 inch Subwoofer,15 inch Subwoofer,Ported Subwoofer,Affordable subwoofer

www.starkesound.com

starkesound Product Details

Home Theater Subwoofer,Best Subwoofer,12 inch Subwoofer,15 inch Subwoofer,Ported Subwoofer,Affordable subwoofer

www.starkesound.com

starkesound Product Details

Home Theater Subwoofer,Best Subwoofer,12 inch Subwoofer,15 inch Subwoofer,Ported Subwoofer,Affordable subwoofer

www.starkesound.com

Almost no measurements or reviews that I can find except the below …

Starke Sound Halo Elite 5.1 Home Theater Speaker System Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com

Looking for a home theater speaker system that makes a statement in both the visual and aural sense? Then the fine folks at Starke Sound have an impressive looking system to tempt both your eyes and ears!

hometheaterhifi.com

You might want to skim through this:

Starke Sound AD4.320 Amp Review (Sample 2)

I reviewed and measured the Starke Sound AD4.320 multichannel amplifier a few months ago. This is the measurements of a second sample kindly sent in by a member. The first sample missed its power by a factor of two. Company disputed this and promised their own measurements that would show...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[GXAlan]

Great post, @GXAlan , but 96 dB is quite loud, even just for peaks, if in a daily home environment.

Agree. I think the expectations for $30,000 speaker is like the expectation you have for a $300,000 luxury car. It should be do some things that are not practical but done well.

I chose 96 dB since that is what Amir has published data on and I could point out the info.

What is interesting is that THX spec is 85 dB average with 105 dB peaks, but the content below 80 Hz is allowed to go to 115 dB peaks.

So -20 dB on a calibrated AVR can get you to bass levels of 95 dB which isn’t completely out of the realm of reasonable listening.

For this discussion, if you’re going to spend $30K, it’s nice to know that the speakers are CAPABLE of playing bass at the same level of performance as say a $1000-2000 home theater setup. For many hobbyists with a windfall, it might make more sense to go $20k on the speaker and $10k on the subs.

For what it is worth, that movie scene is great. That scene is very early on and the story is that the dancer (Zhang Ziyi) is blind and there is a customer who will flick rice toward a drum and then she can repeat the drum. Sort of a “Simon says” game. The YouTube video pales in comparison to the sound experience you get from a Blu-Ray or even DTS 480p DVD. I assume the English dub and original Chinese language track are similarly well mastered — I haven’t actually confirmed that.

I really enjoyed the movie but that scene is a worthwhile home theater demo.

 

[Holmz]

…
What is interesting is that THX spec is 85 dB average with 105 dB peaks, but the content below 80 Hz is allowed to go to 115 dB peaks.

So -20 dB on a calibrated AVR can get you to bass levels of 95 dB which isn’t completely out of the realm of reasonable listening.
…

Sometimes a sub woofer or two is handy, and then the speakers themselves are a bit freed up.

 

[MarkS]

Will be taking an audition trip later next week (finally!) and was curious as to what everyone likes for audition reference recordings? Of course I have my own list

Use that.

Contra Harman, I'm convinced that music that you're not thoroughly familiar with is useless.

You can't properly evaluate endgame speakers without endgame music.

If you don't yet have endgame music ... well, grasshopper, you may be doing this in the wrong order ...

 

[MKR]

Use that.

Contra Harman, I'm convinced that music that you're not thoroughly familiar with is useless.

You can't properly evaluate endgame speakers without endgame music.

If you don't yet have endgame music ... well, grasshopper, you may be doing this in the wrong order ...

@MarkS “end game music”, indeed. Love that. I can assure you my list of demo tracks includes such a thing, I have a trail of destroyed speakers behind me (some literally) due to my test tracks … if a speaker and amp can survive my tracks and do so with grace and aplomb, they are truly worthy

 

[MattHooper]

@MarkS “end game music”, indeed. Love that. I can assure you my list of demo tracks includes such a thing, I have a trail of destroyed speakers behind me (some literally) due to my test tracks … if a speaker and amp can survive my tracks and do so with grace and aplomb, they are truly worthy

I feel fortunate to not desire to play music that will destroy speakers (or my hearing). So I presume I have a wider range of speaker options available.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Contra Harman, I'm convinced that music that you're not thoroughly familiar with is useless.

Hmm. I used my own music selections when I visited Harman for the tests and it was at their request.

 

[symphara]

Use that.

Contra Harman, I'm convinced that music that you're not thoroughly familiar with is useless.

You can't properly evaluate endgame speakers without endgame music.

If you don't yet have endgame music ... well, grasshopper, you may be doing this in the wrong order ...

I think you're absolutely right, what's really the point of doing the audition, the dealer can just play whatever sounds good there. A couple tried it, I stayed for 10 minutes, thanked them and walked out.

But what's "endgame music"? Is that hard and expensive to come by?

I think you've got to try with less-than-stellar tracks too, just to see what's going on. I always have some classic rock, like Child in Time or something by Led Zeppelin or Van der Graaf. And Timeless (Abercrombie, same album name) is my Kef killer (and not only) - if the speaker is too rolled off it will just sound claustrophobic.

 

[Deleted member 57150]

I have heard most of the speakers on your list. I have owned maybe half (Neumann 0300 not the 420, D&D 8c, PMC, PSI and others). Right now I am finding ME Geithain the one to beat. Their fit and finish is remarkable. They sound effortless.

Right now I am running dual Basis 11K units as a stereo pair with 906 and they best the D&D I had for less money. Dutch are great sounding but the interface and volume control was never as easy as they imply it to be. With your budged you could go with their flagship, buy a nice DAC and still have money left over. I've never looked back from actives. Yes they are going to be a pain if you need to get them serviced, but you also can send in parts. Cardioid is good stuff too. I liked the D&D, and maybe it's my OCD, but the calibration was time consuming. I'd rather deal with all of it in the analogue realm. My set up gets me down to 25hz which the Dutch can't do.

I'd go so far as to say you could buy the Geithains sight unseen. Their website doesnt do the cabinets justice and you can pick what wood you like. I've been at this 3 decades and I cannot say enough good things about them.

Shout out to John at Soundlink if you are near the UK or Miles at Vintage King if you are in the US.

Top of the range. You can easily look at their lineup and checkout which ones match your listening distance.

edit: Grimm should be on the short list, but they will max your budget I think and they are integrated with DSP/Digital inputs which creates more headache than it's worth.

 

[OdysseusG]

Since he asked I'll indulgently ramble about my go-to demo tracks

1. Spoiler: Chan Chan from Buena Vista Social Club At Carnegie Hall.

   This is my number one go to, especially if I'm only getting a single song (or minute). It sounds huge, side to side which is easy enough but also front to back when you dial in for that. I've heard the initial wave of applause distinctly roll back from the front of the hall backwards. There's a prominent trumpet; brass instruments have a distinct texture/timbre that has to be there for me to consider a speaker top tier, and I hear instantly whether it's there or not. There's a wealth of percussion, nice acoustic bass, two vocals playing off each other, just plenty going on to focus on individually but when a system just gets it all right it's a groove, makes you want to dance
2. Softer singer/songwriter-y stuff
   1. Spoiler: So Sorry from The Reminder by Feist

      Vocals should be locked in center. The key is her voice especially when it does the little runs up. If a speaker leans at all bright those notes will shift into unpleasantly shrill/painful The tinkling cymbal hits are like the trumpet above too
   2. Spoiler: Baobobs or Düsseldorf from Begin To Hope by Regina Spektor

      My favorite artist, I've seen her live 12 times now. I notice if the voice is off. The recording is pretty spare and a touch silibant with some p-pops that can get exaggerated. I prefer Düsseldorf but the ending gets a bit silly so sometimes I settle for Baobobs. Someone more musically educated than me told me the piano sounded great and natural on the latter, "like they just open mic'd a piano"
   3. Spoiler: Seven Years from Come Away with Me by Norah Jones

      A modern classic "audiophile recording" and probably my most cliche/audio show approved choice, it has nice natural acoustic sound including the acoustic bass which is a key here- the fundamentals are higher up there but way down deep there's stuff going on too, possibly hall modes/ambience. Clean sub/low bass performance will fill in that latter portion and give you much more sense of a real venue space
   4. Spoiler: Anti-Pioneer from Metals by Feist

      Some overlap on the vocals from the other Feist song, but with more going on as well. It starts out very spare, but the bass hits initially dig deeper than you'd think. I'm not sure if this is a speaker thing or an electronics thing, but the best example I've heard of the audiophile trope of things coming out of a black background. The Salon 2s blew me away on this front, with the drum hits fading way away to nothing before the next sharply cracked. The layered vocals that come in on later choruses do interesting things, and it's just another exceptional vocal performance for me
   5. Spoiler: Listen Before I Go from When We All Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? by Billie Eilish

      Also fits in category 4, the background noises sprinkled in are exceptional in how they help to shape the space and setting. All the layers and elements are so clean and distinct
3. More rocking stuff:
   1. Spoiler: Hechicera from Sueños Liquidos by Maná

      Nice clean, well produced rock. Nice deep bass hits, I feel like the drums are exceptionally well recorded. On a top tier system with clean bass I can hear the snap of drumstick hitting the skins distinct from the body resonating. Get it all right and it just rocks
   2. Spoiler: Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots Pt. 1 from Yoshimi Battles The Pink Robots by The Flaming Lips

      Sometimes more is more. Very, very busy track with tons of hi frequency and very healthy bass as well. On worse systems it'll descend into high frequency static and mushy bass; with better playback everything remains distinct, even if it's all piled on top of each other.
   3. Spoiler: You've Got Time from Live on Soundstage by Regina Spektor

      I was at this show and this rocked shockingly hard live. The recording is a little harsh and hard to crank unless your system is well sorted. Great voice I know well, as above. Big band, I think it was a 14 piece "Spektorchestra"
   4. Several tracks from Fleetwood Mac's The Dance, especially The Chain and Tusk, which almost fall into the next category
4. Delightful obnoxious bass
   1. Spoiler: Love Lockdown from 808s & Heartbreak by Kanye West

      this hits lower and harder than anything else in my library. Amusingly John Atkinson from Stereophile was a big fan of this one as a demo track for a while
   2. Spoiler: Bad Guy from When We Fall Asleep, Where Do We Go? by Billie Eilish

      Much of this album, but this one especially is just wild especially when it kicks into the outro
   3. Spoiler: Doin' It Right from Random Access Memories by Daft Punk

      Honorable mention to Get Lucky which is probably a better and more familiar demo track overall, but Doin' It Right just has the bass cranked that much more.
   4. Crack Baby from Puberty 2 by Mitski
   5. Spoiler: Cherokee from Sun by Cat Power

      Not an artist you'd expect on here, but this whole album was a really fun change of pace
   6. Spoiler: Young and Beautiful (DH Orchestral Version) from The Great Gatsby Soundtrack by Lana Del Ray

      Even more surprisingly, this one has big resonating bass drum hits, and I just love the song
5. Odds and ends: Band on the Run by Paul McCartney & Wings (variety), With Or Without You by U2, Old Jacket (Stariy Pidjak) by Regina Spektor if I feel like lobbing a softball, Be Prepared from The Lion King (1994) (spookily in the room vocal), Tarde (Sin Daños A Terceros) from Vivo by Ricardo Arjona (great live sax, huge dynamic range), Gerudo Valley from Hyrule Symphony (twist on nostalgia), Cayman Islands by Kings of Convenience, Heard It on the Radio by The Bird and the Bee, Notorious Thugs by The Notorious B.I.G. featuring Bone Thugs-n-Harmony