$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[airgas1998]

I find the acoustics of coffins less than pleasing.

shall we say a very "dead" sound...

 

[airgas1998]

You posted almost the exact same text on the $4k speaker thread. At least take the time to tailor your response to a different topic (this thread)

I am well aware of Tekton and the design approach is well, strange. Seems like a bunch of drivers thrown willy nilly into large monkey coffin. And the tweeter array concept, I am less than convinced given the reasoning posted on Tekton website, seems like it is just asking for major issues, not to mention a waste of a bunch of nice tweeters. Why not just use a standard midrange like the normal folk? Not saying it doesn’t work, and there are no doubt many fans (zealots) of Tekton out there, but until I see measurements, which are mostly strangely absent on Mr Alexander’s offerings for such a novel concept as his tweeter array, I am hesitant to take the time to audition them. In all fairness, they were on my short list initially (albeit not the first one published here in this thread months ago), but the more I researched Tekton and given the lack of measurements, the more “nervous” I became, so to speak, so off the list they went.

But, I truly am happy you enjoy them, again many folks do, I just think I will pass.

Thanks

don't forget the u.s patent dept knows Eric very well for some reason....

 

[steve59]

Darn, since owning the salon 2 I've lost another 6khz of hearing with me being stone deaf above 10 khz! I could hear to 16 khz a mere 3-4 years ago. Man does time sneak up on ya'. I spent a lot of time slamming the magico A5 because they rolled off so sharply from 5 khz ala stereophile's in room ignoring that razor flat midrange.

Thanks so much for posting your subjective impressions as your credentials are practical and should be enough even for ASR.

 

[stevenswall]

The sofa has everyone on the same height?

The seats are the same height, ear level is different depending on the company, and the room is also used for yoga from time to time, and Mario Kart on the floor.

Most speakers sound less accurate if I stand up or change my ear height, and it's annoying in a way similar to if my TV color shifted when I was off axis. Thankfully Genelec speakers with coaxial drivers and an OLED TV fix this since their vertical and horizontal dispersion evenly tilts to keep things relatively balanced in the frequency domain, even if they can't maintain a balanced soundstage volume wise like a line array can.

EX: getting closer to a floor to ceiling line array you are in the beam of fewer drivers, making the sound softer as you approach which counteracts the loudness that would normally increase as you get closer to a source.

 

[benanders]

Genelec doesn’t share your idea oh pigeonholing their products

Hey @RobL sorry missed your comment yesterday.
It’s not pigeonholing to point out something was engineered for a specific purpose. I try to keep it objective. Your link is marketing. What company would walk away from a novel niche via repurposing of their products? I for one wouldn’t expect it.
That doesn’t change the accuracy of my comments, except maybe those premised on misunderstanding the account of @stevenswall personal “end game” vs. what I perceived to be a one-size-fits-all proclamation. Oops. Internet typing comes with mistakes. And that’s not just me: check your Genelec page link for grammatical typos and character spacing errors.

 

[RobL]

Hey @RobL sorry missed your comment yesterday.
It’s not pigeonholing to point out something was engineered for a specific purpose. I try to keep it objective. Your link is marketing. What company would walk away from a novel niche via repurposing of their products? I for one wouldn’t expect it.
That doesn’t change the accuracy of my comments, except maybe those premised on misunderstanding the account of @stevenswall personal “end game” vs. what I perceived to be a one-size-fits-all proclamation. Oops. Internet typing comes with mistakes. And that’s not just me: check your Genelec page link for grammatical typos and character spacing errors.

Can’t argue with you that they were made with a purpose… i.e.) a minimally diffracted, resonance suppressed, directivity controlled, amplitude-constant measured anechoic response.
Doesn’t that line up with your goals as well?

 

[Holmz]

Don’t think so. Quoting JA from the review:

“…Turning to the time domain, the Salon2's step response on the tweeter axis (fig.9) indicates that all five drive-units are connected with the same positive acoustic polarity, and that each one's step smoothly hands over to that of the next lower in frequency, this correlating with the excellent frequency-domain integration of their outputs…”

I know that what he wrote. But I also see the Y-Axis labeled as ”data in volts”.
I am not sure how we get the 2 or 3 negative pressures?

I suppose it is either not aligned in time or not aligned in phase.

The seats are the same height, ear level is different depending on the company, and the room is also used for yoga from time to time, and Mario Kart on the floor.

Most speakers sound less accurate if I stand up or change my ear height, and it's annoying in a way similar to if my TV color shifted when I was off axis. Thankfully Genelec speakers with coaxial drivers and an OLED TV fix this since their vertical and horizontal dispersion evenly tilts to keep things relatively balanced in the frequency domain, even if they can't maintain a balanced soundstage volume wise like a line array can.

EX: getting closer to a floor to ceiling line array you are in the beam of fewer drivers, making the sound softer as you approach which counteracts the loudness that would normally increase as you get closer to a source.

I can hardly get off of the sofa anyhow, and the only time I’m not sitting is if I am on a wind trainer bike In front of the TV.

 

[benanders]

Can’t argue with you that they were made with a purpose… i.e.) a minimally diffracted, resonance suppressed, directivity controlled, amplitude-constant measured anechoic response.
Doesn’t that line up with your goals as well?

Ha! Good volley @RobL !!
Unsurprisingly, some of those do not line up with my array of goals (find the LA pun).

My approach has been based on preference for diffuse over pinpoint sound. IOW, an oft ridiculed approach at ASR by those who purely want high fidelity playback (which I consider simply: accurate reproduction of what mixing / mastering meant to present).
Depending on one’s goals, objectively favorable speaker measurements can be more or less important / relevant. Lacking or omitting them doesn’t inherently make one’s method flawed, vs. what’s frequently assumed by people without background or training in scientific methodology. Again, depending on one’s goals.

For folks who prioritize hearing the “vision” of mixer / masterer, more than any other playback effects, it’s probably a fair time for me to say IME, the Genelec models I’ve heard seem hard to surpass. C’mon - best way to replicate a mixer’s / masterer’s “vision” is to try to replicate his/her studio seat - no brainer!

 

[Mr. Widget]

For folks who prioritize hearing the “vision” of mixer / masterer, more than any other playback effects, it’s probably a fair time for me to say IME, the Genelec models I’ve heard seem hard to surpass. C’mon - best way to replicate a mixer’s / masterer’s “vision” is to try to replicate his/her studio seat - no brainer!

JBL used that as their marketing line back in the 70s.

It certainly made sense then as it does now, but having heard many of the vintage recordings on those vintage speakers, I'd say the recordings sound better on modern high performance speakers.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

JBL used that as their marketing line back in the 70s.

View attachment 263245

So did Auratone, iirc.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

Here ya go, from my first trip report …

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese
Driven by McIntosh monos. Horrendous. $65k of a mushy soupy mess. But, they were gorgeous to look at! But that’s all I would do if I owned them, just look at them. Nice furniture is about all I can say.

You might find this amusing…. If you have the patience. Wow. The most bombastic bit of audiophile writing I’ve come across. Probably 10000 words before he even mentions the speaker.

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review Sonus Faber's Il Cremonese speakers tell a story.... Review By Dr. Jules Coleman

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review Sonus Faber's Il Cremonese speakers tell a story.... Review By Dr. Jules Coleman of Enjoy the Music.com's Superior Audio Audiophile Music and Equipment Review Magazine

www.enjoythemusic.com

 

[stevenswall]

Can’t argue with you that they were made with a purpose… i.e.) a minimally diffracted, resonance suppressed, directivity controlled, amplitude-constant measured anechoic response.
Doesn’t that line up with your goals as well?

@benanders thinks speakers that have those qualities have an unstable soundstage... I'd be curious to see an outline of his diffuse sound goals and what meets them best.

Too many people get held up by what they think something is or isn't designed for without seeing the overlapping and sometimes all encompassing useful characteristics. Unless there's a specific disqualifying characteristic, pigeonholing is not useful.

The easiest example I can think of is a high end gaming desktop... Does it suck at being a workstation? Is it bad for content creation? If it has incredible CPU and GPU power, and that is what is needed, it doesn't matter.

Similar for a speaker unless you need stadium surround sound or have a special use case.

The Ones though are even more versatile because they get rid of the minimum listening distance moreso than most any other speaker. Doesn't matter if they were created for studio engineers, nearfield, midfield, etc. Just that they go loud enough without distortion and have the qualities you mentioned for those looking for accuracy/fidelity.

 

[stevenswall]

You might find this amusing…. If you have the patience. Wow. The most bombastic bit of audiophile writing I’ve come across. Probably 10000 words before he even mentions the speaker.

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review Sonus Faber's Il Cremonese speakers tell a story.... Review By Dr. Jules Coleman

Sonus Faber Il Cremonese Floorstanding Loudspeaker Review Sonus Faber's Il Cremonese speakers tell a story.... Review By Dr. Jules Coleman of Enjoy the Music.com's Superior Audio Audiophile Music and Equipment Review Magazine

www.enjoythemusic.com

Listened to those same speakers or a nearly identical set in Utah and the person showing them was switching an amp between A and AB modes. Wasn't particularly impressed with the speakers and admittedly couldn't tell the difference in amp modes. His Vandersteen Treo was nice sounding though in another room.

Oh, and that was the first time I was able to do a single blind test with high end audio cables. I was a teenager and was curious... Couldn't tell the difference there either when he'd switch them in and out. He ended up telling me when the high end cable was plugged in and try as I might, I couldn't tell.

Guess my confirmation bias was broken that day.

 

[soundwave76]

Bingo … let’s just say I have spent a fair bit on travel thus far to audition all these speakers, and a bit more spending to come! But the peace of mind that comes from such an endeavor around one’s (large) purchase is very good ROI

You mentioned the peace of mind and it’s ROI. This is a true story for me. When I upgraded my desktop setup to Genelec 8331+7350 three years ago, that was it - sublime sound and zero thoughts of upgrades or tweaks. A bliss kind of a feeling. Highly recommended

 

[olegtern]

I know that what he wrote. But I also see the Y-Axis labeled as ”data in volts”.
I am not sure how we get the 2 or 3 negative pressures?

I suppose it is either not aligned in time or not aligned in phase.

Drivers with filters >1 order don't have flat phase, thus can't be aligned in FR, phase and time, you can choose only 2 of 3

Spoiler: Some explains

E.g. if 3 impulses starts would be in 0 ms, phases would conflict near crossover point, FR would be with peaks and dips because of incorrect summation, and the triangle of step response wouldn't be a triangle shape, it will be corrupted even though it is above zero. You need some time delay for 2nd and 3rd drivers to match the phase shift at the crossover point because of HPF and LPF at drivers.

For example, crossover region at ~3ms, tweeter starts in positive polarity, but has a phase shift near crossover because of HPF, for good summation woofer needs the same phase shift (e.g. LR4 filters on both drivers for symmetry) and some delay:

Turning to the time domain, the Salon2's step response on the tweeter axis (fig.9) indicates that all five drive-units are connected with the same positive acoustic polarity, and that each one's step smoothly hands over to that of the next lower in frequency, this correlating with the excellent frequency-domain integration of their outputs…”

Drivers aren't "flipped out of phase". They are in positive polarity, phase and time aligned at the crossover regions but don't have a constant (linear) phase as a system, thus the step response looks like it looks, not an ideal triangle but up and down deviations.

In general, this is an excellent mixing of drivers in a not-ideal world.

 

[Gringoaudio1]

That front baffle shape absolutely has a purpose… search the interweb for baffle diffraction effects! And indeed beauty in eye of beholder. Personally I love the looks of the Salon 2, they are even better in person, but certainly others have a different opinion. And that is OK

Yes thanks. I’m aware of Harry Olson’s early work on diffraction but haven’t learned the math of bafflestep compensation yet.

 

[Sokel]

Maybe we should define End Game?

End Game: Something where there is no move that is an upgrade/beats it. No other speaker would be an upgrade. There is no competitor based on X Y and Z characteristics. If you're still playing the game, they aren't endgame speakers. If you already know what you're going to swap them out for once budget allows, you're still playing the game and they didn't end it.

Based on that definition, to get an End Game speaker system the only option I see is Genelec considering the whole package:

-I want both stereo and surround sound audio to sound amazingly accurate.
-Most brands won't have a center channel as capable/flexible as The Ones without using a projector screen.
-Vertical dispersion is worse in all non-coaxial speakers. (Eliminates Dutch & Dutch, Kii, and Grimm... KEF and Kali and Devialet can be argued for)
-Any remaining speakers would need to have multiple sizes to mount and place in a surround sound system. (JBL could work with this single point.)
-Those that are capable of this will be wasting cabinet volume if they aren't made of a material thinner and stronger than wood. (Eliminates JBL)
-Extra dampening and bracing will be needed if they don't have a chassis like the Ones. (Eliminates basically everything besides Genelec and Devialet.)
-Cardioid bass is an option with the Ones (eliminates everything besides Kii, Dutch & Dutch, and Grimm I think.)
-Simple room correction and easy setup and availability for surround sound systems is possible. (Eliminated Devialet)

Unless a company like Genelec pops up and does even better, this is the end game for stereo and surround sound. Things I'm not considering:

-Extreme volume levels. It is a lie that a speaker that can play at 200dB sounds more dynamic than a speaker that only goes to 120dB if you're listening at safe levels from a reasonable distance.

-Soundstage stability at all costs, which would better be accomplished by something like a toed in line array so that moving left to right and forward and backward wouldn't greatly affect the sonic image.

-An in wall, architectural system built into a house designed primarily for acoustics where it's no longer about a flexible speaker system but an end game house.

***Thanks to the guy who said things are only endgame until something else comes out. I'd love to see another Genelec pop up and compete. For what they are, I see no competitors to the Genelec The Ones currently, from any company considering the above. (Unless you are looking for price to performance in which case I'd say a Kali surround sound system would probably impress me with how close it would get to my Genelec system.)

***Please respond to the criteria I've laid out in a list if you disagree. Low effort posts that don't address the points above simply show laziness rather than meaningful disagreement and useful context.

If we are talking about a house you forgot aesthetics (that's the second for me,after SQ).
And Genelecs and the like are not exactly champions there.
(I know,I know,it's about taste and sometimes taste changes according to needs)

 

[sajgre]

If we are talking about a house you forgot aesthetics (that's the second for me,after SQ).
And Genelecs and the like are not exactly champions there.
(I know,I know,it's about taste and sometimes taste changes according to needs)

I agree that aesthetics are very important. For me Genelec is far ahead of salon 2... So yea, taste is very personal thing. Just look at most beautiful speakers thread.

 

[Absolute]

I agree that aesthetics are very important. For me Genelec is far ahead of salon 2... So yea, taste is very personal thing. Just look at most beautiful speakers thread.

Somebody once told me that Genelec (Ones) is objectively beautiful because they've won a design award or something. Oh, must be the end of that debate, then.

 

[Sokel]

I agree that aesthetics are very important. For me Genelec is far ahead of salon 2... So yea, taste is very personal thing. Just look at most beautiful speakers thread.

Depending in which of my rooms I would put it for me Genelecs are not industrial enough,I would like them rougher
But no way would put them in my study or living room.