3 way active with real punch.. which way would you go.? Pro driver or .?

[Wolf11Man]

There are no legal regulations for any TÜV testing of loudspeakers or other hi-fi equipment. Where does such nonsense come from?

You are not well informed. Any loudspeaker sold in the EU has to be tested for EMV. You can not simply build speaker, amps or whatever and sell it. Sorry, this is the world we live in. If you sell, for example your DIYS D-amp, you should be very wealthy to pay the fines that you may have to pay. Even prooving that your gear was not the cause for a problem like disturbed telecomunication will ruin an average person. You will not get the cost for the expert opinion back, in any case of a non certified sale.

The CE certification was mentioned in this thread, that was the cause for me mentioning the TÜV

PS you are not allowed to change the speaker in your modern car for a non certified, better one. Did you know?

 

[Roland68]

You are not well informed. Any loudspeaker sold in the EU has to be tested for EMV. You can not simply build speaker, amps or whatever and sell it. Sorry, this is the world we live in. If you sell, for example your DIYS D-amp, you should be very wealthy to pay the fines that you may have to pay. Even prooving that your gear was not the cause for a problem like disturbed telecomunication will ruin an average person. You will not get the cost for the expert opinion back, in any case of a non certified sale.

The CE certification was mentioned in this thread, that was the cause for me mentioning the TÜV

PS you are not allowed to change the speaker in your modern car for a non certified, better one. Did you know?

I'm certainly better informed about this than most.
During my time in IT, I served on several CE committees for several years.
For over 10 years, I've worked in industry (high-energy applications) and other areas (including consumer devices).
For hi-fi equipment, everything is covered by CE, including EMC!
The only person responsible for this is the manufacturer or the person placing the product on the market.
The TÜV has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Of course, the manufacturer or marketer can have their devices tested for EMC by a TÜV body or another company, but this is their private pleasure and has no legal impact whatsoever, according to the law. The TÜV is not liable for anything in such a case.
The sole liability always lies with the manufacturer or the person placing the product on the market, without exception.

Otherwise, please post the legal regulations that state otherwise in Germany or the EU.

 

[Wolf11Man]

OK, your budget is set at 2000$. Next is the size of your speaker and the maximum SPL you want.
There are quite some 38cm/ 15" woofer that are HIFI capable, borderlining PA. If you can go for a 15", don't waste money on a 12". Very simple rule.
I suppose you don't want to spend month and buy boxes full of passsive crossover components. Best would be to look for a dynamic two way that could be the upper part of your build.

 

[Heinrich]

OK, your budget is set at 2000$. Next is the size of your speaker and the maximum SPL you want.
There are quite some 38cm/ 15" woofer that are HIFI capable, borderlining PA. If you can go for a 15", don't waste money on a 12". Very simple rule.
I suppose you don't want to spend month and buy boxes full of passsive crossover components. Best would be to look for a dynamic two way that could be the upper part of your build.

Off topic: for the international reader, the TuV is responsible for declaring your car a scrap at the mandatory two-year test. It is probably the most scrutinized institution in Germany. But I didn't read “CE”?!

On topic: what can I say that is not immediately contradicted by “simple rule”?

However, I would like to clearly and last time reject the 2-way principle a la JBL from the 70s / 80s, now reissued as a great legacy in the form of the M2. Take a look at the intermodulations as measured by Erin. For me, the objective data was not far enough above the usual, measured in terms of price and effort.

 

[Wolf11Man]

OK, Heinrich doesn't like large speaker. If you want life sound like in Rock music, best use the tools rock musicians use: Large speaker with large drivers. The smallest woofer in PA is a 15". A 12" is a midrange driver in PA sound.

 

[Heinrich]

OK, Heinrich doesn't like large speaker. If you want life sound like in Rock music, best use the tools rock musicians use: Large speaker with large drivers. The smallest woofer in PA is a 15". A 12" is a midrange driver in PA sound.

Look,

... pinch/slam that is felt at 9-10' ...

I read it like 'feet', calculates to 3 meters. Not quite p/a, or for a smaller audience. And Inferring the same meaning from the same appearance,or the other way round, may work in everyday life, but not in technology, I assume.

 

[Duke]

OK, Heinrich doesn't like large speaker. If you want life sound like in Rock music, best use the tools rock musicians use: Large speaker with large drivers. The smallest woofer in PA is a 15". A 12" is a midrange driver in PA sound.

If I understand correctly, @Jaxjax is specifically interested in "punch" in the 80-100 Hz region; low-end extension to 30 Hz (presumably achieved via EQ); and upper-end performance suitable to a 400 Hz ballpark crossover.

Cone diameter is only one of many relevant factors if one is in pursuit of "punch". Imo also relevant are motor strength and flux linearity; cone stiffness, geometry, and mass; T/S parameters (i.e. suspension system characteristics); linear excursion capability; thermal power handling; enclosure design including baffle area (in particular width); and room interaction. And to further complicate matters, apparently there are fine points of motor geometry which do not necessarily show up in the numbers but which have an audible effect, such as trading off "impact" within the linear range in exchange for relatively benign behavior when driven into over-excursion, or vice-versa.

There are prosound 12" woofers which have adequate low-end performance for this application (usually still requiring EQ to reach 30 Hz), but I would want to use two of them for this application rather than just one, and a single 15 is probably more cost-effective.

 

[Salt]

https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/bass-midranges/paw-30-nd-8-ohm
PA meets home hifi. 70 Liters BR.

 

[Heinrich]

https://www.visaton.de/en/products/drivers/bass-midranges/paw-30-nd-8-ohm
PA meets home hifi. 70 Liters BR.

Well, that sounds more like an advertising slogan. Just take a look at BMS, another German brand that has been a top performer with p/a for decades. It costs a bit more (250 for a 12"), but that's the end of the line.

Be that as it may, the o/p has probably given up here. I find it somewhat disconcerting to have read so many generalizations. For example, if “punch” has any meaning, then it is a boost of 100Hz, which can be achieved with a small turn on the equalizer. The possibility that the carbon-reinforced diaphragm of a BMS S305, for example, bends has to be shown to me first (https://en.toutlehautparleur.com/media/catalog/product/datasheet/bms/12S305-8.pdf). Or that the triple demodulation fails. I had these beasts in neodymium version. If that's not enough at a distance of 3 meters, order the hearing aid at the same time.

 

[JohnnyNG]

There are prosound 12" woofers which have adequate low-end performance for this application (usually still requiring EQ to reach 30 Hz)

Do you have some specific 12" in mind if only a bandwidth of ~80Hz-500Hz is needed?

 

[Heinrich]

Do you have some specific 12" in mind if only a bandwidth of ~80Hz-500Hz is needed?

Tested like 2 dozen of 12" pro drivers - 500Hz is just on spot where problems begin. Voice coil inductance, non-linear motor core, suspension(!) resonances**. And it depends on the desired sound output level, if one could spare the excursion at 80Hz. Not the least, a low-linearity motor would spoil quality even if the excursion is limited.

I suggest to avoid look-alike 'pro' drivers alltogether and better stick with well established brands. Celestion makes some very (very) good FTR drivers for a while now. BMS I already mentioned. JBL sure, EV I don't know, Beyma, 18sound are a mixed bag, like nearly all Italien brands. The latter know what they are doing, and their regular customers know what they need and get likewise, a fair deal. But you may not be that knowledgeable beforehand ;-)

** don't dismiss, it may ask for an x/over a full octave lower, because such resonance tends to spit out IM to the 10% mark, which copies through even w/ higher order crossovers, nasty that is ...

 

[ppataki]

Do you have some specific 12" in mind if only a bandwidth of ~80Hz-500Hz is needed?

3 way active with real punch.. which way would you go.? Pro driver or .?

With high spl DSP active with real punch/slam being out of my $ range it seems DIY active would be for this sorta thing would be the way to go. Top flight Pro bass drivers in 15" range seem like a way to go, but so does the 13" Scan Speak.? B & C & Beyma have some nice upper end drivers, so do...

audiosciencereview.com

See post #2

Although I only have experience with the 15" model, I guess their 12" range shall be just as good

 

[Duke]

Do you have some specific 12" in mind if only a bandwidth of ~80Hz-500Hz is needed?

B&C 12NBX100, Eminence 3012LF. The latter has a 3" voice (instead of 4") and no shorting rings, but the designer (Jerry McNutt of Eminence) did a superb job with the motor geometry, and imo this very reasonably-priced woofer punches well above its weight class. The B&C was Earl Geddes' choice for the late-model Abbey, I haven't used it in a product yet but measured one and its measurements were superb. There are of course many others besides these two.

 

[Digital_Thor]

With high spl DSP active with real punch/slam being out of my $ range it seems DIY active would be for this sorta thing would be the way to go. Top flight Pro bass drivers in 15" range seem like a way to go, but so does the 13" Scan Speak.? B & C & Beyma have some nice upper end drivers, so do many others. If you were to do a 15"dsp active 3way with high spl capability & above all 80-100hz ish pinch/slam that is felt at 9-10' which way would you go.? Been so long since I had anything close to it I forgot what it really takes. Not interested in small multi driver towers at all.

Build a tall "slim" cabinet. Put a Dayton RSS390HF on the side in around 100-120 liters closed - use RSS390HO if you want to go down to around 60 liters, but get a little more "full" sound ( IMO ). Place it low, close to the floor.
Then use a Sica 8" Coax ZOO5209P-8+8 on the front at ear height - typically around 90cm above the floor - needs maybe 5-7 liters of volume, and cross around 150 and 1500Hz. Put loads of power into it, if you wish, and enjoy the fun - quick and dirty

 

[JohnnyNG]

Tested like 2 dozen of 12" pro drivers - 500Hz is just on spot where problems begin. Voice coil inductance, non-linear motor core, suspension(!) resonances**. And it depends on the desired sound output level, if one could spare the excursion at 80Hz. Not the least, a low-linearity motor would spoil quality even if the excursion is limited.

I suggest to avoid look-alike 'pro' drivers alltogether and better stick with well established brands. Celestion makes some very (very) good FTR drivers for a while now. BMS I already mentioned. JBL sure, EV I don't know, Beyma, 18sound are a mixed bag, like nearly all Italien brands. The latter know what they are doing, and their regular customers know what they need and get likewise, a fair deal. But you may not be that knowledgeable beforehand ;-)

** don't dismiss, it may ask for an x/over a full octave lower, because such resonance tends to spit out IM to the 10% mark, which copies through even w/ higher order crossovers, nasty that is ...

Understood! Actual cutoff I'm thinking of would be 300Hz at 24dB/oct so was looking for some linearity a bit above that.

 

[JohnnyNG]

B&C 12NBX100, Eminence 3012LF. The latter has a 3" voice (instead of 4") and no shorting rings, but the designer (Jerry McNutt of Eminence) did a superb job with the motor geometry, and imo this very reasonably-priced woofer punches well above its weight class. The B&C was Earl Geddes' choice for the late-model Abbey, I haven't used it in a product yet but measured one and its measurements were superb. There are of course many others besides these two.

Appreciated, sir. The 3012LF looks pretty perfect in a ~1ft^3 sealed box. The idea is to use a pair crossed (actively) between a single *sub* woofer (<80Hz) and the mains (>300Hz). Thinking of placing one below each main.

 

[crazycloud]

Ime Faital's 4" motor hits like a young Mike Tyson in a bad mood.

Which of the 4's, or are they all good?

 

[Duke]

Which of the 4's, or are they all good?

All the ones I've tried, whether 15" or 18", but I haven't tried them all.

 

[ThatSoundsGood]

OK, Heinrich doesn't like large speaker. If you want life sound like in Rock music, best use the tools rock musicians use: Large speaker with large drivers. The smallest woofer in PA is a 15". A 12" is a midrange driver in PA sound.

FYI- L'Acoustics K2 has dual 12" drivers
Clair Cohesion CO12 has dual 12" drivers
PK Trinity has dual 12" drivers
Meyer Panther has dual 12" drivers.

They're all using them for Low end (not subs). Many Pro audio mixers prefer PA's with 12" Woofers over 15" woofers. Most mid range drivers in PA systems are 5-8".

 

[Wolf11Man]

If you want life like sound, you should aim for a -3dB point of 35Hz with rock music. You will have a huge problem to find 12" PA driver that can do this out of the box.
If you have the volume for a 15" driver and are free to choose the mid and high driver, there is no reasonable reason to use a 12" unit. Even price is hardly an argument for 12".
Sometimes I get the impression people are talking bad anything they never experienced in a real listening room or can't afford them selves. The effortlessness of music reproduction from a good 15" is hard to match with less cone area.
There are many nice 15" drivers at any price point. For a specialized 12" that may match the output of the larger 15" driver, the choice is quite limited and prices go straight up.

The broad availability of DSP's and unlimited amp power may leave people under the impression you can pressure any driver in a sick cabinet to do any output you want.

It may be a good idea to go back to the basics, what a driver can do in a cabinet without any correction. You will get a much better result with some minor adjustment of a good construction, instead of bending an unwilling driver to it's limits.