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$2k AVR vs $1k AVR + $1k DAC

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sfesp

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From what I gathered, there is no consensus so far. I think it depends on whether you believe those (manufacturers, sellers, dealers etc.) who want to sell you the product or those who have been there, done that, and now believe in specs and measurements.

My opinion is:
- What you are trying to do is great, except the part about connecting the AVR pre out to the SHD.
- Dirac Live may be better if you believe in the benefit of EQ above the room transition frequency, if not I am 100% sure Audyssey(with the App andRatbuddyssey) Vs Dirac Live = audibly no difference, assuming you do your own customization post auto calibration/EQ.

Going from AVR pre out to SHD makes no sense, unless you are a good reason for not feeding the analog signal directly to the mini. It seems to me, if you want to use the mini for music only, you can do so already without involving the AVR.

Now, if I think like a competent EE, I would say forget about the SHD if the following can do what you want to do:

- The 3700 or 4700 if Auro3D, front HDMI port, and a better display are important to you.
- Pick the best desktop <$1,000 DAC ASR has measured so far (that could include the mini, but why pay for Dirac Live..).
- Use the desktop DAC with the Denon's analog input, use something like JRiver that offers great PEQ, so you can forget about REQ, Dirac or not.

My reasoning:

- You can't (try some online test to find out if you even have a chance) hear the difference between 95 dB SINAD or 120 dB SINAD unless you have perfect hearing, extremely quiet room, listen to a wide range of maximum peak SPL in the range of 60-120 dB, the whole audio signal chain has the high enough SINAD bench verified specs, music recorded in quality that can take advantage the SOTA specs, and most important, speakers that can reveal the differences to you.

- If you are of the type who believe well designed electronics such as power amps have different sound signatures, then you would have to look to the likes of some (not all) of the Krell, Passlab, D D'Agostino's Momentum Monoblocks that the designers appeared to have designed their amps based on good principles and then fine tune them by ears and trial and error (just my take, from reading online material including their own articles). I don't like that kind of amps because for them to have the so called musical sound, they will have to have high enough distortions and/or non flat FR, higher output impedance etc. etc.., and then the buyer would have to listen to the products preferable in their own setup at home, to find out if their own subjective preference happens to line up well with the designer's. Note: forget about the Marantz "also claimed" tuned by ears (by their sound master, not the designers themselves), as that can be debunked by yourself using logic and purchase a couple of service manuals.

- So if you are the type (doesn't sound like you are but just in case:)) who prefer products designed for accuracy and then do your own tuning, then yes, a <$1,500 AVR that measured as good as the X3700H probably will be all you need, and it will "sound" the same in an apples to apples comparison in a "blind" comparison test with a Bryston, Anthem, Parasound, ATI, McIntosh or even the class D Hypex based amps.
Thanks for the input. I think trying the AVR without any DAC is getting a lot of votes. I have not tried a new AVR in well over 10 years and have always been disappointed with Audyssey auto eq with my older AVRs. I’m also hearing from most that spending more on an AVR for a “better” DAC and preout stage will be hard to notice. This is what I expected... but good to hear.

An issue I have with feeding the DAC to the AVR is to get the bass management of the AVR, won’t the analog DAC input be sampled and filtered? That defeats the point of using the DAC. I would use the SHD to get good bass eq and a x from mains to subs for music... again this forum I saying try a high rated AVR and go beyond auto eq and the music quality difference vs the DAC will be hard to notice. I open to this and I do have a ASR high rated BM DAC2 that I could test against (but it also has no bass management).

On the amp, I already own the Hypex and can notice a difference vs my current 2 AVRs (SR5004 and NAD 775HD2) feeding speakers like magnepan. I don’t attribute this to sonic signature but probably limits in the power supply - especially when the AVR is feeding 7 chs. Maybe with a new and/or more powerful AVR there would not be a noticeable difference. I had small bryston mono blocs for 10+ years. I bought them used based on specs and warranty/reputation. They were great and when I sold them I got well over half back of what I paid. I bought the hypex based on specs/reputation, size and price (sub 500 DIY cost). The brystons were just a little too big/hot and had down to less than 5 years of their 20 year warranty left.

Appreciate everyone’s input... seems like SHD has integration issues with HT. Now I need to determine the best bang for the buck AVR and seems like denon 3700/4700 is a favorite... I’ll need to spend some time reading their ASR reviews.
 
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sfesp

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The Denon 3700 has detailed measurements here on this site, showing that adding additional, music only, "pure 2 channel" equipment and having to switch back and forth, will make no audible difference in real life. If you need more power than the Denon can provide, add a good amp that performs as good as the Denon. Most don't. You will get better "fidelity on paper" with a lower SINAD if you choose an amp that is up to snuff. Often times, attempting to bypass the AVR for a more "pure" music experience significantly degrades fidelity unless you figure out a way to retain eq on the speakers and subs. But again, an overly complicated and costly endeavor without any real audible benefit, IMO.
Yes. A 2ch side solution that provides good eq and bass management is the challenge. Looking like probably not worth the hassle. The hypex amp on paper, 250w per channel into 4 ohms, 124 SNR, .002% THD+N is better but I’ve not tried these AVRs.
 

Bear123

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Im not surprised you didn't like Audyssey results in the past. I don't want room eq changing my speakers out to 20KHZ. The app is really nice as you can limit correction to whatever frequency you want i.e. 300/500/800 Hz. Full range Audyssey applies way too much boost to the treble area IMO, rather than allowing for the gentle roll off in the upper frequencies that you get with well designed speakers.

Having said that, I think full range Audyssey might be an improvement for some speakers. Sort of a "lesser of two evils" type of thing. Bad speakers with full range eq might be better than bad speakers without?
 

peng

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Thanks for the input. I think trying the AVR without any DAC is getting a lot of votes. I have not tried a new AVR in well over 10 years and have always been disappointed with Audyssey auto eq with my older AVRs. I’m also hearing from most that spending more on an AVR for a “better” DAC and preout stage will be hard to notice. This is what I expected... but good to hear.

I believe that too, but I still use external DAC for music because I found more digital files of high quality recordings in the 24/192 and DSD128, DSD256 groups than from the groups with lower bit rate/depth files. That is the only reason. I firmly believe it is the recording quality that determines how good music sounds to me, not the DAC itself, preamps or amps, that's of course only true once you get pass the point of diminishing return of electronic gear.

An issue I have with feeding the DAC to the AVR is to get the bass management of the AVR, won’t the analog DAC input be sampled and filtered? That defeats the point of using the DAC.

Yes, that's the reason why I said in that case, just use the USB DAC with the likes of JRiver, use its PEQ feature set instead of REQ (Audyssey, Dirac etc.) otherwise it would get routed to the AVR's ADC and then DAC, and defeat the purpose again. Its really up to you to choose between REQ, or believe in audible benefits of "better" DACs and take the purity approach. I have gone back and forth and can live with either way.

I would use the SHD to get good bass eq and a x from mains to subs for music... again this forum I saying try a high rated AVR and go beyond auto eq and the music quality difference vs the DAC will be hard to notice. I open to this and I do have a ASR high rated BM DAC2 that I could test against (but it also has no bass management).

If you believe the SHD can manage bass audibly better then that's your belief but if you use Dirac, that is not just simply bass management, then you are back to the same thing, it defeats the theoretically advantage of using external DACs. By the way, I tried Dirac Live two channel trial version and also a minidsp 2XHD, found XT32 did a better job (on paper based on REW graphs) and the mini dsp was a waste of time and created a jungle of wires so it has been back in the box for several years now, but apparently it can be upgraded to run Dirac so I may give it try again, time permitting. Bottom line, it was a huge relief after I ripped it off my 7.1.4 setup when I could relax more to focus on enjoyment the movies and music. Ymmv..

The brystons were just a little too big/hot and had down to less than 5 years of their 20 year warranty left.

Funny you mentioned this, I sold mine two years ago when there was 6.5 years warranty left but mainly because I had, still have too many amps, so it hardly get used for more than a few hours a year, for many years.
 
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sfesp

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Yes, that's the reason why I said in that case, just use the USB DAC with the likes of JRiver, use its PEQ feature set instead of REQ
How do have both your DAC and AVR output to both mains and sub?
 

peng

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How do have both your DAC and AVR output to both mains and sub?

I am not sure what you mean by both DAC and AVR, as only the AVR output would be connected the the mains and subs, not the DAC. I don't even use external DAC with the AVR/HT system any more but I still do it in one of my 2ch system that is based on a pair of BMR that do work better with a sub. Connections are: Laptop to DAC USB port, DAC analog to AVP analog input (the AV8801 in one of my 2ch setup), AV8801 FL/FR preout to power amp input, and AV8801 subout to subwoofer.

In direct and pure direct mode you can have the subwoofer on if you set it up that way. You can still set the speakers to small and XO to 90 Hz etc. I don't remember checking it with REW to see the effects but can do it later if you are interested, to see that the bass management does work.

Just checked: The sub will run in Direct and Pure Direct if you want it to, but speaker small, XO will not work even if selected, so the settings are left as is for convenience only, so that if you flip back to Stereo you don't have to do anything else. This is the AV8801, I have to try it on the much newer X4400H yet though I am quite sure it will be the same. The old flag ship 5805 does have bass management in direct mode but that's a flag ship, not sure if the X8500H and AV8805 has the same feature.
 
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sfesp

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I am not sure what you mean by both DAC and AVR, as only the AVR output would be connected the the mains and subs, not the DAC. I don't even use external DAC with the AVR/HT system any more but I still do it in one of my 2ch system that is based on a pair of BMR that do work better with a sub. Connections are: Laptop to DAC USB port, DAC analog to AVP analog input (the AV8801 in one of my 2ch setup), AV8801 FL/FR preout to power amp input, and AV8801 subout to subwoofer.

In direct and pure direct mode you can have the subwoofer on if you set it up that way. You can still set the speakers to small and XO to 90 Hz etc. I don't remember checking it with REW to see the effects but can do it later if you are interested, to see that the bass management does work.

Just checked: The sub will run in Direct and Pure Direct if you want it to, but speaker small, XO will not work even if selected, so the settings are left as is for convenience only, so that if you flip back to Stereo you don't have to do anything else. This is the AV8801, I have to try it on the much newer X4400H yet though I am quite sure it will be the same. The old flag ship 5805 does have bass management in direct mode but that's a flag ship, not sure if the X8500H and AV8805 has the same feature.
Thanks. I think I have enough input. I’ll research best options for AVR. I had multiple setups in the past... going forward my wife has requested that only one room in the house can have visible equipment... 2nd systems are at most stealth bookshelf’s with hidden electronics. Hence the goal of integrating the HT and 2ch. And also why I swap speakers around in the same room... because
 

Chrispy

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Ok. The feedback is don’t bother with the more expensive AVR... stick with the SR6014 or Denon 3700. And also consider the AVR as a DAC/pre without the SHD...

They both have pre-outs for flexibility in case you need more power, but avrs won't really rival dedicated external power amps either if you want something of significantly more power. They have reasonable power for most people's use, though.
 

waynel

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Thanks. I think I have enough input. I’ll research best options for AVR. I had multiple setups in the past... going forward my wife has requested that only one room in the house can have visible equipment... 2nd systems are at most stealth bookshelf’s with hidden electronics. Hence the goal of integrating the HT and 2ch. And also why I swap speakers around in the same room... because

if you want uncompromised two channel and HT with the same speakers and LR amp get a trigger controlled switch like this:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/arx-rs-1-xlr-ab-switcher-review.15328/
And subs with two inputs

otherwise , I’d just stick with a top measureing AVR like the Denon 3700h for everything.
otherwise , I’d just stick with a top measureing AVR like the Denon 3700h for everything.
 
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sfesp

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Thanks again for your help. Subs do have 2 inputs. I’ll start with a ~1k AVR like the 3700 and my hypex amp and see if I think it’s worth adding the switch and DAC.
 

waynel

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Thanks again for your help. Subs do have 2 inputs. I’ll start with a ~1k AVR like the 3700 and my hypex amp and see if I think it’s worth adding the switch and DAC.
That’s a solid plan
 

peng

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Thanks. I think I have enough input. I’ll research best options for AVR. I had multiple setups in the past... going forward my wife has requested that only one room in the house can have visible equipment... 2nd systems are at most stealth bookshelf’s with hidden electronics. Hence the goal of integrating the HT and 2ch. And also why I swap speakers around in the same room... because

I used to have stuff in 3 rooms but now only allowed 2 so I jammed at lest two systems in one room.:D Desktop's don't count fortunately, because it is in a not very noticeable area.
 

peng

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Thanks again for your help. Subs do have 2 inputs. I’ll start with a ~1k AVR like the 3700 and my hypex amp and see if I think it’s worth adding the switch and DAC.

Did you get the input buffer for more gain? It is not an issue if you use it with external amps only, otherwise you may not get the best possible performance (on paper) depending on other factors, mainly your real in use max peak power need. That's because of the relatively lower gain of the Hypex amps vs the AVR's approx. 29 dB.
 

dave999z

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Thanks again for your help. Subs do have 2 inputs. I’ll start with a ~1k AVR like the 3700 and my hypex amp and see if I think it’s worth adding the switch and DAC.
Curious what setup you settled on in the end?
 
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