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250 hours and 5 day ‘settling in’!

DDF

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#41
My past life was almost exclusively involved with professional Broadcast electronics, and there was never a single instance of a manufacturer stating any 'break in' time or anything of the sort. No professional user would be the least bit impressed if told that what they bought wouldn't work properly for a number of hours. It would immediately ring alarm bells as to stability. Why 'audiophiles' accept any less is a mystery to me, all part, I suppose, of creating a mystique that audiophile products transcend science and engineering.

S.
I've designed electronics (audio and optical) and photonic gear for years for the market and my experience mirrors yours. It just has to work from day 1 period.

Proper design can test for ageing through thermal cycling or damp heat testing, for which there are international standards. These can help predict infant mortality and long term ageing (the "bathtub") and pick off issues during the design phase. A proper designer will factor any performance drift over time OR environment (humidity) into the design margins required by the product to hold its spec.

I expect there are very few if any home audio manufactures that follow this rigour given that specification drift has few if any real comercial consequences.
 

DDF

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#42
I recall visiting Burmester in Berlin and seeing a large room filled with racks of shelving full of naked cone drivers all being constantly driven at low frequency for days before being selected for the construction of their systems.
Perhaps testing for infant mortality?
 

PierreV

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#44
It's a well known issue.

The last time I invited a cellist at my home, he shipped his cello a week in advance and then played BWV1007 continuously for 11 days. That would have been a lovely private concert, but a few hours of unexpected sunshine forced us to cancel the event at the last minute.
 
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#45
I just broke in a pair of Dynaudio Emit 20's. When I auditioned the demo pair at the store, they sounded fantastic, which is why I bought them. Brought home a new pair, sounded muddy and flat. Left them in a room to break in for 75 hours, came back and played the same test tracks, and they sounded much like the pair I auditioned in the store - great dynamics, lively presentation. Night and day difference from what they were when I first listened to them.
 

MattHooper

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#46
My past life was almost exclusively involved with professional Broadcast electronics, and there was never a single instance of a manufacturer stating any 'break in' time or anything of the sort. No professional user would be the least bit impressed if told that what they bought wouldn't work properly for a number of hours. It would immediately ring alarm bells as to stability. Why 'audiophiles' accept any less is a mystery to me, all part, I suppose, of creating a mystique that audiophile products transcend science and engineering.

S.
That is a point I've often brought up when debating pure-subectivist audiophiles about the whole break-in phenomenon. As we know, there are audiophiles who say prettty much EVERYTHING requires "break in." In an audiogon thread concerning break in of fuses, capacitors etc I would bring up the implications everyone is ignoring for professional industries. Vishay, for instance, doesn't just make their capacitors, resistors, chips etc for audio gear. They serve a massive market that includes Industrial, Telecommunications, Medical, Avionics, Military and Space uses.

Do you see ANY indication from Vishay that their products require hours...or days...or weeks...of "break in" before they work properly to reach their specs???? Of course not. That would be utterly disastrous in any number of those highly sensitive applications and none of those clients would brook such utter nonsense and demands. That stuff has to hit specs essentially out of the gate and be very reliable.

Doesn't make a dent in the thinking of audiophiles. Our hobby is somehow special, and magically sealed off from the ratinional used in the rest of the world. "Sure all that placebo-control and blind testing and controlling for variables stuff is necessary when studying other aspects of human experience. But not in my hobby! Don't have to worry there, no way other variables like bias can overwhelm my trusty senses!"
 
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#47
That is a point I've often brought up when debating pure-subectivist audiophiles about the whole break-in phenomenon. As we know, there are audiophiles who say prettty much EVERYTHING requires "break in." In an audiogon thread concerning break in of fuses, capacitors etc I would bring up the implications everyone is ignoring for professional industries. Vishay, for instance, doesn't just make their capacitors, resistors, chips etc for audio gear. They serve a massive market that includes Industrial, Telecommunications, Medical, Avionics, Military and Space uses.

Do you see ANY indication from Vishay that their products require hours...or days...or weeks...of "break in" before they work properly to reach their specs???? Of course not. That would be utterly disastrous in any number of those highly sensitive applications and none of those clients would brook such utter nonsense and demands. That stuff has to hit specs essentially out of the gate and be very reliable.

Doesn't make a dent in the thinking of audiophiles. Our hobby is somehow special, and magically sealed off from the ratinional used in the rest of the world. "Sure all that placebo-control and blind testing and controlling for variables stuff is necessary when studying other aspects of human experience. But not in my hobby! Don't have to worry there, no way other variables like bias can overwhelm my trusty senses!"
Speaker break-in makes sense from a scientific perspective, there are measurable differences, and sometimes audible differences since it's essentially a mechanical process. I don't see how cables or caps can be 'broken in' though, and so far I haven't seen any measurements that would convince me otherwise : )
 
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#48
Paul from PSAUDIO gives a really good overview on the subject:

 
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#50
Citing Paul McGowan as an authority?

In this forum?

Do you have your flame-suit on? ;-)
I'm not taking any sides here, but what he says about break-in is useful I think. : )
 

DonH56

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#51
Yes, it is useful in helping to determine if a component is properly designed such that it achieves its specified performance a few seconds after turn-on or if it takes days to stabilize. Especially if said component doesn't even sound good when initially turned on and not until it has played for a few days. There are a myriad of reasons why a component's performance would change over time and just as many why a good design should not.

IMO - Don
 

Blumlein 88

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#52
I'm not taking any sides here, but what he says about break-in is useful I think. : )
I'm taking sides. What he has to say is useless. Worse he takes almost ten rambling minutes to say it. Does he have paper caps in use? Please, get information elsewhere. Well let me re-phrase that. Don't get his mis-information.
 
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#53
I just wanted to add a couple examples related to settling in or burn in in my experience in manufacturing related to burn-in:
1.) We had a product that we were building and testing for manufacturing and our input current measurements were something like +/- 20% of nominal. We ended up tracking it down to capacitors being extra leaky (on the order of mA) when they are new and taking a few minutes to "settle in". After this few minutes, we can test them repeatedly and get extremely reliable results. I haven't measured other electrical components but I'd guess some transistors/diodes/tranzorbs types of things might have some extra leakage for a very short period.
2.) We burn-in some devices at maximum spec'd temperature which probably some audio manufacturers also do. This is to weed out bad part batches/incorrect manufacturing.

Has someone just taken measurements of "broken in" amplifiers and speakers just to show objectively one way or the other?
 

amirm

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#54
Has someone just taken measurements of "broken in" amplifiers and speakers just to show objectively one way or the other?
I did it with the Schiit Yggdrasil DAC. I tested it over 3 week period, leaving it on during that period. Its performance did not change one bit. I post regular snapshots during that time with the same result.

I have also tested a number of amps from cold to warm and the variations are tiny but sometimes show worse performance, not better.
 

Wombat

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#55
I just broke in a pair of Dynaudio Emit 20's. When I auditioned the demo pair at the store, they sounded fantastic, which is why I bought them. Brought home a new pair, sounded muddy and flat. Left them in a room to break in for 75 hours, came back and played the same test tracks, and they sounded much like the pair I auditioned in the store - great dynamics, lively presentation. Night and day difference from what they were when I first listened to them.
This effect seems to be more common with some newer members. Don't worry, it probably isn't permanent. ;)
 

Theo

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#56
I just broke in a pair of Dynaudio Emit 20's. When I auditioned the demo pair at the store, they sounded fantastic, which is why I bought them. Brought home a new pair, sounded muddy and flat. Left them in a room to break in for 75 hours, came back and played the same test tracks, and they sounded much like the pair I auditioned in the store - great dynamics, lively presentation. Night and day difference from what they were when I first listened to them.
So you moved the speakers. Did you put them in the exact same spot with the same furniture setting? Can't there be a difference because of that?
Anyway, audio memory certainly does not last 75 hours...
Some manufacturers say that the boomer may need a little bit of break-in though. Just a few minutes should be enough...
 

anmpr1

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#57
I don't know exactly when this 'burn in' thing started. In the days of tubes you had to wait a minute or so for things to settle down. Maybe it's a hold over from that. Obviously with today's solid state stuff, and with things like cables, it's an idiotic practice. But audiophiles can be a pretty idiotic bunch. And I'm writing from personal experience. There's plenty of idiocy to go around; I've had my share.

At least with 'burn in' you aren't spending hard earned dollars for tweaks like magic amplifier bricks, and green CD pens. I mean, you have to listen to the gear anyway, so just convince yourself that you are burning it in.
 

Sgt. Ear Ache

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#58
A lot of audiophiles have little "burn in stations" set up where they leave their gear running a certain number of hours to get the process done before they listen. So they aren't actually listening while the process is occurring. It's a somewhat fetishistic and ritualistic thing really...the idea that a human being can listen to a set of headphones or (even goofier) cables, or a dac or amp or whatever for 15 or 20 minutes, then run them for a number of hours of "burn in" and listen to them again and make any sort of pronouncement about changes in sound quality related to that burn in is just ludicrous.
 

anmpr1

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#59
A lot of audiophiles have little "burn in stations" set up where they leave their gear running a certain number of hours to get the process done before they listen. So they aren't actually listening while the process is occurring. It's a somewhat fetishistic and ritualistic thing really...
I guess if you are going to feed your neurosis, a 'burn in station' is cheaper than psychiatrist fees and safer than anti-depressant medication. But here's the thing: how do these folks decide whether one 'burn it in' machine is better than another? Do Stereophile or Absolute Sound review them, and make recommendations? What if one machine burns in crystal highs at the expense of soundstage and mid-range liquidity? Can that be repaired, once burnt in?
 

invaderzim

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#60
.... Night and day difference from what they were when I first listened to them.
Aside from a discussion of if burn-in is real or not; how can anyone take a company seriously that says that they need to go through a shorter re-break-in period if moved just a couple meters. What resets in the speakers?

"move them just a few meters, they again need about 5 days to reach their full sonic potential"
 
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