2019 Thorens New Reel to Reel Deck

[Soniclife]

I can't find the CD masters that I have on tape. The tape versions sound substantially better than the variations I have tried in digital. They have really screwed up the mastering for digital releases.

So similar to the vinyl situation.

 

[watchnerd]

I'd just buy the CD..........

S

I have stuff on RTR that are live concerts that were never issued on CD.

 

[watchnerd]

Higher noise floor depends on the recording. Vintage recordings, whether classical or Beatles or Led Zeppelin will have been recorded on tape. If with Dolby, then the noise floor will be low enough not to be noticeable. If without Dolby, then classical recordings will have tape hiss on the quiet bits, not so noticeable on the louder bits. Rock/Pop less noticeable due to compression, but still audible if listening for it. (House of the Rising Sun, Animals) for instance. On the other hand, Telstar by the Tornadoes is recorded at peak level all the way through, so tape hiss isn't noticeable even without Dolby. Anything recorded on digital tape, even early on, like Bop Till You Drop, won't have any audible hiss.

CDs won't necessarily sound any better due to the limitations of the source material, although a lot can be done these days with DSP noise reduction.

S.

It also depends when the analog recording was made.

End-of-the-era of RTR studio recording overlaps with early-mid digital and the tape formulations for >15IPS 2 track got better at the end of that era, some of it derived from formulations originally invented to improve cassettes.

 

[watchnerd]

12,000GBP is insane. Converting to USD and then back to 1979 dollars (I just picked that year at random), that would've been $4600US - insanely high even for higher-end stuff back at that time.

If Thorens can sell a small number of these units to a super-niche set of wealthy buyers, good for them I guess - I mean, there apparently are people who buy $25k DACs, right?

12,000 GBP is actually less expensive than the new Technics SL1000R turntable, which goes for 14,000 GBP without a cartridge.

https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/technics-sl-1000r

I haven't seen any specs on the Ballfinger / Thorens, but most of the top of the range RTR 2 track decks had better wow & flutter @15 IPS than turntables.

 

[FrantzM]

12,000GBP is insane. Converting to USD and then back to 1979 dollars (I just picked that year at random), that would've been $4600US - insanely high even for higher-end stuff back at that time.

If Thorens can sell a small number of these units to a super-niche set of wealthy buyers, good for them I guess - I mean, there apparently are people who buy $25k DACs, right?

Not apparently ... Some on this board ,might have done it back in their years of insanity ... For some people on some boards this is a normal price because some purchase $100K DAC combos and $15,000 USB cable ...

 

[watchnerd]

Not apparently ... Some on this board ,might have done it back in their years of insanity ... For some people on some boards this is a normal price because some purchase $100K DAC combos and $15,000 USB cable ...

In addition, while I'm not saying 14k is a good deal by any means, it does take more engineering cost to get good performance from electro-mechanical devices than purely silicon-based digital ones.

 

[GGroch]

It is a rebadged Ballfinger: http://www.ballfinger.de/....

Nice link. Looking at the Ballfinger website they are a luxury lifestyle brand rather than an audiophile brand. This: "It is to be expected that people will always prefer the corporeality of things to the continuing reduction possible through technical progress for a long time to come. After all, as much as new technologies are invariably convenient and enticing in the beginning: we do, though, still want to be able to decide and choose between an arbitrary user interface and real substance."

Partnering with Thorens branding seems like a great fit. Adding both nostalgia and substance. You don't want your guests first reaction to your new $12,000 toy to be "What the heck is a Ballfinger".

 

[watchnerd]

Nice link. Looking at the Ballfinger website they are a luxury lifestyle brand rather than an audiophile brand. This: "It is to be expected that people will always prefer the corporeality of things to the continuing reduction possible through technical progress for a long time to come. After all, as much as new technologies are invariably convenient and enticing in the beginning: we do, though, still want to be able to decide and choose between an arbitrary user interface and real substance."

Partnering with Thorens branding seems like a great fit. Adding both nostalgia and substance. You don't want your guests first reaction to your new $12,000 toy to be "What the heck is a Ballfinger".

It's a smart move for both.

It wouldn't shock me if McIntosh OEMed one, too.

After all, there is a whole line of McIntosh turntables, all of which I believe are OEMed from someone else (Clearaudio among them, I believe).

 

[LTig]

[..]But it's really the wow factor that makes it worth it. I have a pretty dramatic looking TT (Michell Gyro SE) which gets lots of admiring looks, but my Revox PR99 gets a lot more "Holy crap!" because most people have never seen one in person before, ever in their lives.

I usually close my eyes when listening intensively so I don't care much about looks

 

[LTig]

Would there be a higher noise floor?

Yes, except when it's the master tape used for making the CD.

 

[watchnerd]

I usually close my eyes when listening intensively so I don't care much about looks

oh but then you miss out on the placebo effect of better looking gear!

 

[LTig]

It's a smart move for both.

It wouldn't shock me if McIntosh OEMed one, too.

After all, there is a whole line of McIntosh turntables, all of which I believe are OEMed from someone else (Clearaudio among them, I believe).

I think that many turntables coming from companies either new on the market or never been known for making turntables are probably OEMed somewhere. How would it be possible that a company develops a highend TT from scratch without any know how on hand?

Some of the McIntoshs indeed look like Clearaudio, which may not be the smart move one might think. Last year I was at a demo where Clearaudio showed a new TT with magnetic bearing of the platter (CMB). This means that the platter can freely move up and down along the Z axis while the tonearm stays fix, as was demonstrated.

When I told the guy from Clearaudio that every movement of the platter against the tonearm must translate into an unwanted audio signal he just said that this would be no problem. The same is true for the new Music Hall mmf-11.1 where the tonearm is mounted on a different board than the platter, and both boards have no rigid connection but are decoupled with Sorbothane material.

When even well known companies make such stupid design errors how can a newcomer be able to not do such errors?

 

[PierreV]

When even well known companies make such stupid design errors how can a newcomer be able to not do such errors?

Someone posted this link in the Thorens announcement comment about Ballfinger's construction.

Pictures at the end of the thread.

http://rt22.ru/viewtopic.php?f=10&t...f97sl_2baIN1n3TnHUkApI4lDTfdZ0QCAQJrQw8S7FQUU

Doesn't look very nice at first sight...

 

[watchnerd]

Yes, except when it's the master tape used for making the CD.

Yeah, AAD CDs don't make magic.

That being said, I find the hiss of 15 IPS 1/4" 2 track to be unnoticeable during music when using modern, high level tapes >300 Nwbm

 

[watchnerd]

Someone posted this link in the Thorens announcement comment about Ballfinger's construction.

Pictures at the end of the thread.

http://rt22.ru/viewtopic.php?f=10&t...f97sl_2baIN1n3TnHUkApI4lDTfdZ0QCAQJrQw8S7FQUU

Doesn't look very nice at first sight...

Which part struck you as not looking nice?

If I take the case off my Revox PR99, the frame looks similar, as do the circuit boards....the biggest difference being the lack of the big Studer motors.

 

[PierreV]

Which part struck you as not looking nice?

If I take the case off my Revox PR99, the frame looks similar, as do the circuit boards....the biggest difference being the lack of the big Studer motors.

There are a few pics on the other pages showing what appears to me as somewhat creative/sloppy soldering.

 

[watchnerd]

I think that many turntables coming from companies either new on the market or never been known for making turntables are probably OEMed somewhere. How would it be possible that a company develops a highend TT from scratch without any know how on hand?

Some of the McIntoshs indeed look like Clearaudio, which may not be the smart move one might think. Last year I was at a demo where Clearaudio showed a new TT with magnetic bearing of the platter (CMB). This means that the platter can freely move up and down along the Z axis while the tonearm stays fix, as was demonstrated.

When I told the guy from Clearaudio that every movement of the platter against the tonearm must translate into an unwanted audio signal he just said that this would be no problem. The same is true for the new Music Hall mmf-11.1 where the tonearm is mounted on a different board than the platter, and both boards have no rigid connection but are decoupled with Sorbothane material.

When even well known companies make such stupid design errors how can a newcomer be able to not do such errors?

My first thought is that the electro mechanical / magnetic complexities of high speed tape, calibration, alignment, etc, would prevent goofy design decisions that lead to worse performance.....but I'm probably wrong.

 

[watchnerd]

There are a few pics on the other pages showing what appears to me as somewhat creative/sloppy soldering.

Ah, now I see.

Quality-wise, the old Revoxes/Studers are better built than that. But spares are an issue and getting pricier all the time.

In theory, even if a new design isn't made "like they used to", it should be easier to get parts....right?

Or maybe not...

 

[Blumlein 88]

I think that many turntables coming from companies either new on the market or never been known for making turntables are probably OEMed somewhere. How would it be possible that a company develops a highend TT from scratch without any know how on hand?

Some of the McIntoshs indeed look like Clearaudio, which may not be the smart move one might think. Last year I was at a demo where Clearaudio showed a new TT with magnetic bearing of the platter (CMB). This means that the platter can freely move up and down along the Z axis while the tonearm stays fix, as was demonstrated.

When I told the guy from Clearaudio that every movement of the platter against the tonearm must translate into an unwanted audio signal he just said that this would be no problem. The same is true for the new Music Hall mmf-11.1 where the tonearm is mounted on a different board than the platter, and both boards have no rigid connection but are decoupled with Sorbothane material.

When even well known companies make such stupid design errors how can a newcomer be able to not do such errors?

Yes, seriously. How can people not know that having a suspended sub chassis hold platter and arm was one of the hallmarks of a good design. Or go the Rega route and have it all on a solid platter with feet underneath it.

I suppose one may have done tests or run simulations and found such deviations were not significant, but does not seem like good design to me.

I also find it hard to take expensive new designs seriously if they don't have linear tracking arms. They have their issues, but if you can spend enough money to do one well it seems a better design.

 

[amirm]

Pictures at the end of the thread.

http://rt22.ru/viewtopic.php?f=10&t...f97sl_2baIN1n3TnHUkApI4lDTfdZ0QCAQJrQw8S7FQUU

It is so strange to see modern electronics/ICs inside a reel to reel deck!