2 + years in the making …. Finally coming together

[Altair]

System has been installed, with no break in and I have to say, it sounds absolutely magical! The Accuphase pre amp sounds fantastic!!! I can’t define it in measurements or explain it, it just sounds fantastic!!! Unbelievable!!! Heavenly is the word that comes to mind! Also effortless. A very different sound than the Marantz playing the same files though the same source

 

[klettermann]

I've got an extremely quiet room and just went through a rigorous noise analysis. This involved determining the audible noise contribution from lighting, HVAC, equipment hum, poor cabling practices (not type of cable, but bundling them together or not, etc) isolating things on different circuits and more. This included noise from the power lines outside. The end result was sobering: The noise from this stuff is real, it can be measured and it can be heard (if room is quiet enough).. ,My takeaway: if you want to get to the next level forget the fancy cables, super crazy low SINAD and that stuff.. It's one or 2 or 3 orders of magnitude lower than the room noise. The flip side is that if you can't silence the room none of rest matters very much apart from optics. A radical proposition perhaps, but that's what I found. Cheers,

 

[Altair]

I've got an extremely quiet room and just went through a rigorous noise analysis. This involved determining the audible noise contribution from lighting, HVAC, equipment hum, poor cabling practices (not type of cable, but bundling them together or not, etc) isolating things on different circuits and more. This included noise from the power lines outside. The end result was sobering: The noise from this stuff is real, it can be measured and it can be heard (if room is quiet enough).. ,My takeaway: if you want to get to the next level forget the fancy cables, super crazy low SINAD and that stuff.. It's one or 2 or 3 orders of magnitude lower than the room noise. The flip side is that if you can't silence the room none of rest matters very much apart from optics. A radical proposition perhaps, but that's what I found. Cheers,

Absolutely correct. Investing in the room is far more important and impactful than any other part of the kit, the problem is most room treatments look awful, for me visual appeal is as important as sonic quality, I would want to sit in a beautiful room with fantastic sound rather than a recording studio atmosphere with perfect sound. The question is how can that be achieved?

For one thing, cables and power conditioning really don’t make any noticeable difference. I got zero sleep yesterday after the system was installed and tuned and have to say after switching back and forth between factory cables and expensive after market cables the difference is just not there, if it is then it must be beyond my ability to discern - absolutely a possibility as I am not a trained sound engineer or a long time audiophile…. But to my ears can’t find any value from neither cabling nor power conditioning in all types of music.

Now when it comes to the pre amp… I have to make this comment again… man the difference between the c2900 from Accuphase when it comes to the vast majority of music is just a world apart from the Marantz! I am particularly blown away by the vocals through the C2900!

 

[SKBubba]

Good grief.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Investing in the room is far more important and impactful than any other part of the kit, the problem is most room treatments look awful, for me visual appeal is as important as sonic quality, I would want to sit in a beautiful room with fantastic sound rather than a recording studio atmosphere with perfect sound. The question is how can that be achieved?

I agree that the room acoustics are very important. I also would rather not sit in a recording studio or man cave with slabs of foam and wall hangings that are diffusors.

For one thing, cables and power conditioning really don’t make any noticeable difference. I got zero sleep yesterday after the system was installed and tuned and have to say after switching back and forth between factory cables and expensive after market cables the difference is just not there, if it is then it must be beyond my ability to discern - absolutely a possibility as I am not a trained sound engineer or a long time audiophile…. But to my ears can’t find any value from neither cabling nor power conditioning in all types of music.

It is well known by those who actually listen with their ears instead of listening to marketing hype that as long as a cable isn't seriously under sized , corroded, or very poorly designed, it just doesn't make a difference... same thing with power conditioning. This fact is also easily verified by testing.

Now when it comes to the pre amp… I have to make this comment again… man the difference between the c2900 from Accuphase when it comes to the vast majority of music is just a world apart from the Marantz! I am particularly blown away by the vocals through the C2900!

I can't speak to your example, but to verify that I could not hear a difference between a $10,000 state of the art analog preamp fed by a $25,000 digital streaming source and DAC and a competently designed and manufactured digital preamp with integrated streaming and room correction, I set up an elaborate blind ABX test. After finding a defective cable, I discovered or rather proved to myself and others who took the test, that it was impossible to reliably identify the analog or digital preamp. They sounded exactly the same.

On the topic of how to acoustically treat a room without it looking like a science experiment, I use the junk principle. Well placed random junk will act as acoustic diffusors and absorbers.

 

[Altair]

I agree that the room acoustics are very important. I also would rather not sit in a recording studio or man cave with slabs of foam and wall hangings that are diffusors.


It is well known by those who actually listen with their ears instead of listening to marketing hype that as long as a cable isn't seriously under sized , corroded, or very poorly designed, it just doesn't make a difference... same thing with power conditioning. This fact is also easily verified by testing.


I can't speak to your example, but to verify that I could not hear a difference between a $10,000 state of the art analog preamp fed by a $25,000 digital streaming source and DAC and a competently designed and manufactured digital preamp with integrated streaming and room correction, I set up an elaborate blind ABX test. After finding a defective cable, I discovered or rather proved to myself and others who took the test, that it was impossible to reliably identify the analog or digital preamp. They sounded exactly the same.

On the topic of how to acoustically treat a room without it looking like a science experiment, I use the junk principle. Well placed random junk will act as acoustic diffusors and absorbers.

View attachment 502950

Great room! Enjoy!

We are putting things together and placing items in hopes of improving the sound experience further while maintaining the decor. The curtains made a world of difference!

As far as the cabling and power conditioning, if my ears and your are not deceiving us, how is it that an entire industry exists here? It is a valid sector with long standing respected companies and a large sector of the market invest in them! What convinced me to purchase the cabling and power conditioning was not any previous testing I had done but rather what I had heard/read/and seen from the endless enthusiasts who absolutely insist that they make a huge difference. One absolutely sane looking person told me buying the kit I had planned on without the cabling and power conditioning would be the stupidest thing he could imagine. I am deeply sorry I listened to him and others.
Mind bending thing is that these are rational successful people with great careers and stable lives. I would never advise someone to definitely buy expensive cables or power conditioning. I was on the verge of getting the Accuphase power conditioner and instead decided to go the more affordable route, really glad I at least went with less expensive snake oil! If ever there was a right sector to call snake oil it’s this !! Really pissed about that part of the decision making process!!!

 

[Mr. Widget]

Great room! Enjoy!

It has been. Unfortunately it is time to move so I'll be tackling these problems again and the challenge will be a greater one as the new digs are modern which calls for clean lines and less clutter. It'll be interesting to see how I pull it off.

As for snake oil, there is a large contingent here at ASR who are convinced that everyone selling and promoting expensive wires are charlatans. I am not in that camp. While I am certain that there are plenty of unscrupulous manufacturers, I think many out there believe in their fairy dust and for awhile you may believe it too, but then the magic wears off.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

As for snake oil, there is a large contingent here at ASR who are convinced that everyone selling and promoting expensive wires are charlatans. I am not in that camp. While I am certain that there are plenty of unscrupulous manufacturers, I think many out there believe in their fairy dust and for awhile you may believe it too, but then the magic wears off.

Whether the salesman believes his snake oil will cure your [cancer/diabetes/gout/scurvy/hysteria/evil spirits] is immaterial. It's still snake oil.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Whether the salesman believes his snake oil will cure your [cancer/diabetes/gout/scurvy/hysteria/evil spirits] is immaterial. It's still snake oil.

No argument there.

 

[Times]

Now when it comes to the pre amp… I have to make this comment again… man the difference between the c2900 from Accuphase when it comes to the vast majority of music is just a world apart from the Marantz! I am particularly blown away by the vocals through the C2900!

I'm sure that this is your perception, and there is a good chance that there really are audible differences. If so, I would like to understand where these come from.

So could you please answer these questions?

- How are the C2900 and the AV10 connected to the speakers?
- How do you switch between both devices?
- Is a Audyssey or Dirac calibration active in the AV10?

As far as the cabling and power conditioning, if my ears and your are not deceiving us, how is it that an entire industry exists here?

Because most people have no idea how human perception works, and very few are able or willing to admit that you can only trust your own senses if you completely exclude the influence of others—which is often very difficult to do.

In addition, this realization usually means that in the past, one believed in things that were not real and may have spent a lot of money on imagined improvements.

For many, it is therefore easier to ignore all potential clues that could cause this belief system to collapse. The realization would simply be too painful. And the more time and money that has been invested, the more painful it becomes. This is by no means unique to the audio industry; it's just human nature.

Lets take your situation as an example:
Do you really want to find out whether or to what extent your two pre-amps actually differ in terms of sound (alone)?

 

[Altair]

It has been. Unfortunately it is time to move so I'll be tackling these problems again and the challenge will be a greater one as the new digs are modern which calls for clean lines and less clutter. It'll be interesting to see how I pull it off.

As for snake oil, there is a large contingent here at ASR who are convinced that everyone selling and promoting expensive wires are charlatans. I am not in that camp. While I am certain that there are plenty of unscrupulous manufacturers, I think many out there believe in their fairy dust and for awhile you may believe it too, but then the magic wears off.

No I didn’t get any discernible change in my system at all with the power conditioning and expensive wires in the loop or out. Zero! Not any better or worse just the same exact sound. Did about 20 tracks with and without back and forth and tried to listen to the fine details in these high resolution files but nothing

 

[voodooless]

While I am certain that there are plenty of unscrupulous manufacturers, I think many out there believe in their fairy dust

Is a medical charlatan not a charlatan just because they believe in the bullshit they peddle?

 

[Mort]

Is a medical charlatan not a charlatan just because they believe in the bullshit they peddle?

You are correct but some people will still be 'cured' by the placebo effect.

The phenomenological question is "is there a placebo effect in audio?"

 

[Altair]

I'm sure that this is your perception, and there is a good chance that there really are audible differences. If so, I would like to understand where these come from.

So could you please answer these questions?

- How are the C2900 and the AV10 connected to the speakers?
- How do you switch between both devices?
- Is a Audyssey or Dirac calibration active in the AV10?



Because most people have no idea how human perception works, and very few are able or willing to admit that you can only trust your own senses if you completely exclude the influence of others—which is often very difficult to do.

In addition, this realization usually means that in the past, one believed in things that were not real and may have spent a lot of money on imagined improvements.

For many, it is therefore easier to ignore all potential clues that could cause this belief system to collapse. The realization would simply be too painful. And the more time and money that has been invested, the more painful it becomes. This is by no means unique to the audio industry; it's just human nature.

Lets take your situation as an example:
Do you really want to find out whether or to what extent your two pre-amps actually differ in terms of sound (alone)?

Hi

I manually plugged in the c2900 then unplug it and bring in the AV10. Calibration has been done by the installer which took less than an hour for the C2900 and about 15 minutes for the AV10. Yes Dirac has been activated and measurements were taken. I asked the installer to send me the files so I could share here and will do a dedicated new post with pictures of the finalized space plus measurements.

Regarding your question if how do I say the C2900 is more pleasurable, it is difficult for me to explain why I enjoyed the sound. If I was going to give it a shot I would say the C2900 was far less accurate and definitely had less detail, but the character of the sound was very enjoyable. If anyone here comes from the HiFi headphone world you might understand what I am talking about, tune amps have different characters based on the amp and the tube. These could very accurately be called shortcomings/ flaws/ imperfections if you look at measurements, however for many people, myself included, these imperfections result in a sound signature that could be pleasing. My mind recalls the analogy of a fine oil painting in contrast to a photograph.

It goes without saying, people, especially the newer generation, could very well prefer a purely digital, processed ( “ enhanced “ ) sound, some of us prefer the character certain analog equipment brings to the table.

Logic and value do not apply here, nor do they apply in the world of art, fine watches / Jewlery, etc. this is an unnecessary luxury if there ever was one, but the takeaway for me is that the pre amp is definely my preference when it comes to HiFi, I do far prefer the AV10 for movies. Ran through scenes from Tron, Transformers, and Top Gun and the AV10 blew me away! The C2900 being two chanell and designed for HiFi is not valid for testing if course but even if there was a 7.1 analogue pre amp designed for HT like the McIntosh would still prefer the digital path here I think. These AV10 was perfect in all regards and provided what I would imagine is what the developers intended.

 

[voodooless]

The phenomenological question is "is there a placebo effect in audio?"

That’s not a question, it’s a certainty.

And no, placebo drugs don’t usually cure people. Usually there would be nothing wrong with the people in the first place.

Calibration has been done by the installer which took less than an hour for the C2900 and about 15 minutes for the AV10.

What is there to calibrate on that device? From what I can see there isn’t much to setup in that thing. Do you use the loudness compensation?

 

[Marc v E]

First off I would like to thank everyone here for their advice , weather it was do me personally when I started my research or the generally available wealth of knowledge I have been going through, these are great forums for anyone seriously interested in great audio!

After literally 2 years of research, I had decided on my setup, got a designer to do the room, and now at the installation point finally with the room nearly completed and the equipment having arrived.

Two reasons I am posting this , for one to share and thank those who helped me along, and to ask for final advice regarding room treatment ( that will not ruin the decor, visuals are also important to me )

As far as sonic adjustments to the equipment I am going to rely on my installer. He is a well heeled audio engineer who has installed many high end systems for some important people. He should be able to get the most out of the equipment but unfortunately he does not get involved in the room design and construction phase. Only the equipment sourcing and installation/ adjustment.

Attaching the room renders ( soft target ) and the completed work so far for reference, also attaching the equipment selections for both the HiFi and HT. Please ignore the retail prices mentioned in the documents, I had a target of staying under 150k for both systems and glad to say I was able to secure a discount that allowed me to build what I would consider a reference endgame system that will last a lifetime for about that. The heart of the system is the Abdulgader separates and the Focal Utopia Maestro, which I selected after auditioning for over a year.

I can’t even count how many trips I made with the wife specifically to hear an endless amount of configurations, which pretty much resulted in more confusion that clarity, the two issues of long term sound memory and the fact that I would audition a component today with a different set of components in a different room in a different room really didn’t help, but the fact that was clear to me at the point of making my decision was, the attached components from Focal, Accuphase, and Marantz just seemed like they where ideal for me from a sonic, visual, and value perspective. I did decide to invest a portion of the budget into wires but kept it restrained and within reason. Choices where made so that the cost was not a life ending decision as some wires could be ( unbelievable what some stuff costs!!!!!) and the quality and reputation of the brands and lines would leave me with no doubt that I am undermining my system. Really happy with my choices and glad I took the route I did, never invested in a high end system up to today, kept the interest and saved for 25 years, researched/auditioned:sourced/built over 2 plus years, and now at the cultivation point. I do apologize for this long winded post, but considering how epic this moment is I hope you will forgive me if I shred this milestone with some excitement and asked for additional advice.

The part about room treatment is what I am worried about, I canceld out the mirror ceilings in the design and will include large thick carpets and curtains , plus increased the amount of hard woods covering surfaces, but still wondering if anything else can be done. Anything else I am missing that could add tangible value would be greatly appreciated

Note: I have been following the design in the renders fairly closely but deviating when necessary for the sake of sound quality, I would say visual appeal is as important as sonic excellence, it would be ideal if I could hit both in a balanced approach. Examples of deviations include abandoning the mirror ceilings as mentioned, mirror bar display, moving furniture away from speakers….and your upcoming advice.

That looks really nice.
Love the pool table too.
Thank you for sharing and enjoy!

 

[Times]

I manually plugged in the c2900 then unplug it and bring in the AV10

And you have to do that every time you want to switch from listening to music to watching movies / tv and vice versa?

Calibration has been done by the installer which took less than an hour for the C2900 and about 15 minutes for the AV10

That should be the other way round. Did you get the full Dirac suite - Live, DLBC and ART - with the AV10?

Regarding your question if how do I say the C2900 is more pleasurable

Where did I ask that?

This is the question I asked:

Do you really want to find out whether or to what extent your two pre-amps actually differ in terms of sound (alone)?

...and it is a yes or no question. Do you want to know?

 

[Altair]

That’s not a question, it’s a certainty.

And no, placebo drugs don’t usually cure people. Usually there would be nothing wrong with the people in the first place.


What is there to calibrate on that device? From what I can see there isn’t much to setup in that thing. Do you use the loudness compensation?

Calibration was mostly positioning the speakers and the switchable gain / AAVA control / adjusting the P7500. Tool about 10 minutes as it’s designed to be optimized from the get go.

What I am interested in now is actually seeing if there can be a difference with other analogue pre amps in this same environment. Many claim that each pre amp introduces it down character as does the amplifiers themselves, would be enlightening to drop in a C3900 and see if any change can be noticed as claimed

 

[Mort]

Logic and value do not apply here, nor do they apply in the world of art, fine watches / Jewlery, etc.

Not as a consumer, correct. We can't judge consumer preferences. It's a very low standard.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't apply logic and value to our decision. If you can't tell the difference in a blind test. Why would you buy it?

I might prefer costume jewelry, even think it's 'better', but that doesn't mean I own a diamond.

 

[voodooless]

That should be the other way round. Did you get the full Dirac suite - Live, DLBC and ART - with the AV10?

This is certainly not an 10min process, and certainly not something to only leave to the installer because it involves tweaking the house curve to your preference at the very least.

Also, how are the subs integrated in all this? Even though small, they will significantly impact the lows if done correctly.