2 + years in the making …. Finally coming together

[Altair]

@Altair I was just about to post the same. Sorry. Integrators make huge margins on kit, that's a huge incentive to write absolute nonsense like: the comparison between artificial and natural sound can’t be made, and that measurements alone are not an indicator of quality. I would be questioning the value proposition (besides having bling kit with low depreciation) and demand a blind listening test. Sighted listening tests will not be valid.

But, I love the room design and look forward to seeing build take shape.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I admit to having chosen the majority of the kit and yes, it was mostly emotional rather than rational

 

[Altair]

8x21" is always better...

But seriously, why ask that question for subwoofers, given all the other nonsense that costs thousands and does nothing..

So 4 21 inches mounted on the floor and 4 mounted on the ceiling?

 

[Sokel]

Thanks for your thoughts. What kind of ceiling treatments should I look at and where would I source them?

It's usually what we call a "cloud" , google to see what they look like.
Your installer will know, and it can be made to look good too.
Depending the shape it works both as an absorber and a diffuser.

It usually hangs from the ceiling with a little distance between it so to be more effective at lower frequencies (not very low though) .
Ceiling is amongst the earliest reflections.

 

[Mort]

So 4 21 inches mounted on the floor and 4 mounted on the ceiling?

4x12" should be fine. 15" if you have the space.

This is assuming you will get and use something like DIRAC art.

 

[Altair]

Why ask that question?
Because a budget has its limits.

I understand these forums are concerned with factual, measurable impact of anything we in the world of sound, which is why I read here more than any other forum, but the fact of the matter is that there is another viewpoint and it is valid.

It’s somewhat difficult for me to explain this, but the best analogy I can come up with when trying to explain why I would choose an analogue system with separates when I can get a digital system that does the same in a fraction of the price range and much less space, is when comparing a photograph to an oil painting. A digital photo will always, always, be far more accurate than a hand made oil painting, but we can all agree that a great oil painting looks far more attractive and has far more visual impact and appeal than any photograph.

Is it possible for a great photographer to make photos that are more desirable than an average oil painting? Sure. But a great painting will always be more desirable than any photograph.

I have the same viewpoint towards HiFi equipment as far as analog vs digital, separates integrated, natural sound is not the right terminology though it’s frequently used, I would say “ attractive imperfections “ as compared to digital perfection is a better term. Tubes sound better in headphones all day as far as I am concerned though solid state definitely measures closer to perfection. Which is why I keep saying give it a try and see what works for you.

As far as cables and power conditioning goes, I am as skeptical as the majority here are of their value and impact. I couldn’t tell a difference in my headphone setup and doubt it’s there here, but I decided if I was going with the traditional audiophile route I might as well try some “snake oil” as it’s frequently called, you never know….and it’s a once in a lifetime thing to answer a question that’s been on my mind for years…still doubtful and excited to find out!

Back to the digital vs analogue discussion, I chose the Accuphase setup as a standard layout and when the decision to add a HT to the place came up I decided to go all digital. In my mind going analogue for music and digital for Hollywood made sense, I absolutely could be wrong about the Accuphase pre amp and looking forward to that testing as well.

 

[Mort]

It’s somewhat difficult for me to explain this, but the best analogy I can come up with when trying to explain why I would choose an analogue system with separates when I can get a digital system that does the same in a fraction of the price range and much less space, is when comparing a photograph to an oil painting. A digital photo will always, always, be far more accurate than a hand made oil painting, but we can all agree that a great oil painting looks far more attractive and has far more visual impact and appeal than any photograph.

You won't find many here agreeing with this analogy but that doesn't mean we won't help you spend your money!

 

[Altair]

I recall a situation now where I had a friend try out my headphone setup , he literally started crying half way through the test playlist. That never happened to anyone trying out the solid state setup, generally speaking tubes moved more people than my Naim solid state does. Go figure

 

[Mort]

I recall a situation now where I had a friend try out my headphone setup , he literally started crying half way through the test playlist. That never happened to anyone trying out the solid state setup, generally speaking tubes moved more people than my Naim solid state does. Go figure

Blind ABX or it's worthless. Anyway, no need to go further. We won't convince each other.

 

[Altair]

You won't find many here agreeing with this analogy but that doesn't mean we won't help you spend your money!

Understood. I think most people on these forums hear with their minds though others might try to listen with their emotions.

That came out corny as could be, but what I meant was that a certain population of the audiophile community tend to look for perfection in details and reproduction, while others are just after the emotional impact that a particular sonic signature could have on them. I know in the case of my headphone setup I went from A to B.

 

[Altair]

Blind ABX or it's worthless. Anyway, no need to go further. We won't convince each other

That’s a good point, blind testing can be done with the help of the wife.

I don’t think we need to convince each other or anyone else. This whole hobby is nuts and farts, who in their right mind spend over 150k usd on a sound system?

 

[AudioJester]

If your installer is so convinced about adding the preamplifier - he should back it up with a money back / return guarantee. How is he advising equipment, with subs that dont match and no room treatment?
By the way - how will you configure / setup both AV10 and Accuphase?

Having said all that, I do think the Accuphase is a masterpiece, even if overpriced and less capable. An AVR with Dirac ART will make a huge audible difference even for 2 channel listening (where other speakers work to support).

 

[Mort]

This whole hobby is nuts and farts, who in their right mind spend over 150k usd on a sound system

Not me! I could spend about $50k max on some cardiod genelecs and an AVR. There just isn't anything more expensive to buy that measures any better.

 

[Altair]

If your installer is so convinced about adding the preamplifier - he should back it up with a money back / return guarantee. How is he advising equipment, with subs that dont match and no room treatment?
By the way - how will you configure / setup both AV10 and Accuphase?

Having said all that, I do think the Accuphase is a masterpiece, even if overpriced and less capable. An AVR with Dirac ART will make a huge audible difference even for 2 channel listening (where other speakers work to support).

The decidin on the components was mine with the exception of the subs and the HT processor.

As far as tuning, that’s all in the installers domain

 

[jEDGEc0m]

Thank you for the advice. Would it be better to switch to 2 15 inch subs or 4 10 inches or 4 15 inches?

I would say certainly x4 of something. If physically placing 4x15" doesn't cause your room layout/aesthetics issues you can't live with, 4x15" seems good to me. Lacking bass is unacceptable, and capacity for more bass than you need use isn't a problem.

 

[Tell]

who in their right mind spend over 150k usd on a sound system?

If I had the money and I'd build a seriously large PA system then I could maybe manage to get up to 150k USD, but apart from that I have no idea how it's possible to get even close to that if you're interested in actual good sound quality and not luxury status bling. I mean even the amount of money you spent on cables alone could probably get you something that sounds as good or even better than what someone not in their right mind spent over 150k USD on.

 

[Altair]

If I had the money and I'd build a seriously large PA system then I could maybe manage to get up to 150k USD, but apart from that I have no idea how it's possible to get even close to that if you're interested in actual good sound quality and not luxury status bling. I mean even the amount of money you spent on cables alone could probably get you something that sounds as good or even better than what someone not in their right mind spent over 150k USD on.

So I take it you are not in favor of the pre amp either?

 

[Times]

So I take it you are not in favor of the pre amp either?

I don't know if this has anything to do with “being in favor with” – from my point of view, it just doesn't make sense:

The fact that the AV10 and Dirac ART enable a significantly better sound experience than a pre-amp without DRC/DSP is one thing, especially when design-related compromises have to be made.

The other is: How are both pre-amplifiers even supposed to be integrated together in this scenario?

Did you receive a sketch of the planned installation/cabling?

 

[Tell]

So I take it you are not in favor of the pre amp either?

Not really no, for that kind of money that that thing costs I could live my life without working for maybe three years, and someone choosing to waste that on a random preamp is just insane to me.

 

[Matt S]

Only read the marketing material but have no doubt room correction is absolutely necessary for both HT and HiFi.

When it comes to HiFi, the debate in what comprises desirable sound quality will rage on indefinitely it seems. On one hand we have science based arguments that rely on measurements and facts to determine what’s worthwhile, and on the other hand we have people who state that those measurements or factual indicators don’t necessarily comprise what would be considered pleasurable.

In headphones, I absolutely subscribe to the latter argument, my WooAudio tube amplification sounds far more pleasing and “natural” than my solid state Naim amp, though the Naim is far more advanced and higher rated.

I really can’t make a comment on what makes sense until I do my own testing as far as HiFi is concerned, that will have to wait another 4-6 weeks at least

What an individual considers pleasurable is absolutely down to the individual. No argument there - your ears, your choice. The science, those measurements though, they are the facts which can lead you to the better engineered equipment and the most transparent sound.

A lot of equipment in your system makes no difference whatsoever to the sound. But, if it works for you, great ... and it no doubt works very well for your installer's wallet.

That all said, it looks like a wonderful place to spend time listening to music and watching movies. I hope you really enjoy that fabulous space. I could lose days there.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

That’s a good point, blind testing can be done with the help of the wife.

I don’t think we need to convince each other or anyone else. This whole hobby is nuts and farts, who in their right mind spend over 150k usd on a sound system?

Well, either you have, or you have been jesting with us from the outset!