2 + years in the making …. Finally coming together

[Altair]

First off I would like to thank everyone here for their advice , weather it was do me personally when I started my research or the generally available wealth of knowledge I have been going through, these are great forums for anyone seriously interested in great audio!

After literally 2 years of research, I had decided on my setup, got a designer to do the room, and now at the installation point finally with the room nearly completed and the equipment having arrived.

Two reasons I am posting this , for one to share and thank those who helped me along, and to ask for final advice regarding room treatment ( that will not ruin the decor, visuals are also important to me )

As far as sonic adjustments to the equipment I am going to rely on my installer. He is a well heeled audio engineer who has installed many high end systems for some important people. He should be able to get the most out of the equipment but unfortunately he does not get involved in the room design and construction phase. Only the equipment sourcing and installation/ adjustment.

Attaching the room renders ( soft target ) and the completed work so far for reference, also attaching the equipment selections for both the HiFi and HT. Please ignore the retail prices mentioned in the documents, I had a target of staying under 150k for both systems and glad to say I was able to secure a discount that allowed me to build what I would consider a reference endgame system that will last a lifetime for about that. The heart of the system is the Abdulgader separates and the Focal Utopia Maestro, which I selected after auditioning for over a year.

I can’t even count how many trips I made with the wife specifically to hear an endless amount of configurations, which pretty much resulted in more confusion that clarity, the two issues of long term sound memory and the fact that I would audition a component today with a different set of components in a different room in a different room really didn’t help, but the fact that was clear to me at the point of making my decision was, the attached components from Focal, Accuphase, and Marantz just seemed like they where ideal for me from a sonic, visual, and value perspective. I did decide to invest a portion of the budget into wires but kept it restrained and within reason. Choices where made so that the cost was not a life ending decision as some wires could be ( unbelievable what some stuff costs!!!!!) and the quality and reputation of the brands and lines would leave me with no doubt that I am undermining my system. Really happy with my choices and glad I took the route I did, never invested in a high end system up to today, kept the interest and saved for 25 years, researched/auditioned:sourced/built over 2 plus years, and now at the cultivation point. I do apologize for this long winded post, but considering how epic this moment is I hope you will forgive me if I shred this milestone with some excitement and asked for additional advice.

The part about room treatment is what I am worried about, I canceld out the mirror ceilings in the design and will include large thick carpets and curtains , plus increased the amount of hard woods covering surfaces, but still wondering if anything else can be done. Anything else I am missing that could add tangible value would be greatly appreciated

Note: I have been following the design in the renders fairly closely but deviating when necessary for the sake of sound quality, I would say visual appeal is as important as sonic excellence, it would be ideal if I could hit both in a balanced approach. Examples of deviations include abandoning the mirror ceilings as mentioned, mirror bar display, moving furniture away from speakers….and your upcoming advice.

 

[Times]

Hi Altair,

first of all - congratulations to get your dream project on the way. With thousands of choices in each part, there are literally billions of possible combinations to choose from, so getting to point where everythings feels just right (or right enough to make a decision) is not easy. Especially with new and - possibly - "better" things lurking around the corner at any given time.

Second: Since the number of different opions is almost as big as the number of possible choices, you're going to get some critical ones too. Which I think is good, since (constructive) critisism might help you to come closer to your goal, while a virtual patting on the shoulder doesn't.

---

Personally, I would have spent way, way less on digital processor, streamer and cables, and saved the bucks that went into power conditioning all together, since it doesn't add any audible value. But if you got the budget and they make you feel good - why not.

The Accuphase power amp sure is a monster, extremly well built, high resale value and - like a Rolex watch - a luxury item. On top of that, one that will look awesome in your room. In regards of sound quality alone, you would've gotten the same result with a tenth of the investment, but, again, there are other reasons why one chooses equipment like that.

What I don't get at all is the Accuphase pre-amp. If a good source and sufficiently well designed amplifiers are given, speakers and room - including acoustic treatment, placement and digital room correction - are responsible for ~99% of the sound quality. With your Marantz AV10, you've got the option to use Dirac ART, which will help tremendously in that regard, in stereo and multichannel alike, especially if the visual appeal / design aspect of the room is equally important and the physical treatment options are limited.

So if you plan to use the Accuphase pre-amp instead of the AV10 for stereo listening, you'll lose a lot of sound quality.

---

As for how to proceed, I would personally finish the room, install the components, and then work with Dirac ART and REW to optimize the result step by step.

cheers,
Times

 

[Altair]

Hi Altair,

first of all - congratulations to get your dream project on the way. With thousands of choices in each part, there are literally billions of possible combinations to choose from, so getting to point where everythings feels just right (or right enough to make a decision) is not easy. Especially with new and - possibly - "better" things lurking around the corner at any given time.

Second: Since the number of different opions is almost as big as the number of possible choices, you're going to get some critical ones too. Which I think is good, since (constructive) critisism might help you to come closer to your goal, while a virtual patting on the shoulder doesn't.

---

Personally, I would have spent way, way less on digital processor, streamer and cables, and saved the bucks that went into power conditioning all together, since it doesn't add any audible value. But if you got the budget and they make you feel good - why not.

The Accuphase power amp sure is a monster, extremly well built, high resale value and - like a Rolex watch - a luxury item. On top of that, one that will look awesome in your room. In regards of sound quality alone, you would've gotten the same result with a tenth of the investment, but, again, there are other reasons why one chooses equipment like that.

What I don't get at all is the Accuphase pre-amp. If a good source and sufficiently well designed amplifiers are given, speakers and room - including acoustic treatment, placement and digital room correction - are responsible for ~99% of the sound quality. With your Marantz AV10, you've got the option to use Dirac ART, which will help tremendously in that regard, in stereo and multichannel alike, especially if the visual appeal / design aspect of the room is equally important and the physical treatment options are limited.

So if you plan to use the Accuphase pre-amp instead of the AV10 for stereo listening, you'll lose a lot of sound quality.

---

As for how to proceed, I would personally finish the room, install the components, and then work with Dirac ART and REW to optimize the result step by step.

cheers,
Times

Hello and thank you for your thoughtful and obviously well informed thoughts.

Maybe I can make things worse and reply to my own lengthy thread with a lengthy description of why I chose the components I chose. This should answer my reasoning behind my choices to a large degree, please feel free to ignore this as it’s nothing more than the ramblings of an overexcited person who just acquired his first high end audio system.

Reasoning behind each major component:

1- The speakers: having auditioned literally over a 100 different pairs, the Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series Signature and Focal Utopia line in general where two models that where prime candidates from the start, I always had these two brands in the back of my mind as representatives of legendary high end audio, I loved the looks of both ( B&Ws more so ) and they could be sourced in line with my budget. Having auditioned both , and being fortunate to be able to audition these two specifically in the same showroom with the same equipment, I was surprised to find that the Focals outperformed the B&Ws, at least in the areas that where important to me. The Signatures are world class speakers no doubt and are stunning visually, but the Utopias just had more in every category that I was focusing on. I enjoy classical, jazz, and vocals and the Focal soundstage, warmth, and balance was just on another level for my preferences. Not to mentioned, the B&Ws are very hard to drive and would significantly increase the requirements of the rest of the setup. I would say between these 2, if you are more into bass heavy rock music for instance and want that extra bass with more separation the Signatures would outshine the Focals, but would require bi-amping and a carefully designed setup. The Focals where not as visually attractive but where easier to drive, sounded better for my audio, and had fantastic value as new speakers locally with a 35% discount I was able to negotiate. Although I drooled over the Grande Utopias, the Evo Utopia Maestros where more in line with my budget and they did look good in addition to sounding phenomenal so that was that. Side note: I had deeply wished I like the sound of the Sonus Favre Stradivari G2s I had auditioned, having seen them on display I was blown away by their looks but was left underwhelmed by their performance, goes to show you never make an assumption based on looks or what other people think, it really has to be you.

Amplification: Having decided on the speakers, I started reading and asking around what list of manufacturers where recommended to pair with the Maestros, I was glad to receive confirmation that Accuphase was on the short list of recommended manufacturers, this was a brand I had deep long standing admiration for and although some say they are overpriced , I found that the 1% additional sound quality to always demand several magnitudes more in pricing, plus the build quality and finish are second to none, I went with separates as I really wanted to explore a high end configuration though I should say, I also auditioned their new top of the line integrated and must say, if budget and space are concerns there is very little to miss if you go that route!

I basically chose the top of the line separates and went all in with a top of the line DAC from Accuphase, is this setup worth the extra funds over an integrated from Accuphase or from another brand? NO! The value proposition is not there, neither is it there for most of what we do in HiFi, is there a notable difference with separates? ABSOLUTELY! Without a doubt! Things would be even better if I could afford to vamp with two amplifiers but I had to draw the line somewhere and this was my line.

Cabling and power conditioner: this is the part of the system that most rational people would call silly, and it probably is. I have not auditioned any of the stuff under this category, I just spent a very, very long time hearing and reading the arguments and decided this was no different than the aftermarket rims I got for my car, a silly emotions purchase that might and might not have actual impact. I chose the brands that where the best value and had a strong reputation based on feedback from people I trusted including my professional installer. I will do A-B testing once the system is fully broken in and see if the 15k spent on debatable items makes any noticeable difference at all. This was no more a rational purchase than upgrading to first class over economy or even more so business and as per your example a fine watch. Mostly emotional.

The source: went with a highly respected streamer, which I expect to upgrade as the years go by, was intent on a dedicated streamer as I didn’t want to spend allot on an integrated dac/streamer though some models absolutely perform as well as dedicated dacs and separate streamers, the only problem is that you are stuck with that dac if you go that route whereas with separates, as streamer technology inevitably evolves, you can simply upgrade that part of the system. That said, as my budget recovers, I plan on one day moving to vinyl, that is a deep passion area for me but the cost and lack of knowledge has forced me to stay away. In my headphones setup I absolutely prefer tubes and vinyl, the warmth and natural sound just hit different, would be fantastic to be able to afford both someday.

As for the AV components, they were an afterthought to be honest. This was supposed to be a dedicated HiFi room with a dedicated home theater, but unfortunately I had to abandon my plans for a dedicated HT in my house as my wife wanted the room for something more important according to her like a baby play room. You can’t have it all! This is where the choices came in, the Marantz AV10 was as much an emotional purchase as it was a practical one, another brand I highely respected and was keen on owning one day. I should say I did audition the Marantz AMP 10 for the HiFi portion and man, that thing blew me away!!!! How can class D sound so unbelievably fantastic? Again goes to show you don’t trust what you read but try for yourself ! If someone was value oriented and wanted high end an AMP 10 and AV 10 are truly a fantastic setup that would leave you wanting for nothing!

The rest of the HT setup was value oriented as budget had reached its peak, I tried to chose components that where both reasonably priced and had received favorable reviews. If I had an open budget I would have loved to go with Perlisten speakers all the way!

 

[Altair]

One last comment, to address your concern regarding Accuphase Pre Amp vs AV10 , thank you for pointing that out, I have zero experience with Dirac ART or room correction and had purchased the pre amp based on HiFi auditioning in dedicated rooms.

I very well could have made a bad choice here, and will try out and see if I can decide if the pre amp dem Accuphase make a difference or not. I very well can sell it in the future and depend solely on the AV10.

 

[voodooless]

I'm not going to comment on all the overpriced electronics, cables, ethernet, and power nonsense, because you seem to already know that it won't do anything

The most curious choice is probably the pair of Elac subs. Tiny 10" boxes, where you already have 2x 10" per side in the Focals, which have way more volume at their disposal as well. In such a setup would expect something like 15" monsters at least.

I would recommend using the AV10 as the main pre-amp/dac as well. It actually has the potential to improve your sound quality substantially by using Dirac ART and integrating those subwoofers properly. No need for anything else. If you want to add "add tangible value", then that is it.

 

[Altair]

I just had an interesting discussion with my installer who sourced my selections and he went on a rampage! Haha! That was worth the sound of the setup alone!

His response was that the comparison between artificial and natural sound can’t be made, and that measurements alone are not an indicator of quality, he absolutely believes both an AV10 and dedicated pre amp make absolute sense and he insists I made the right choice.

Personally I am not sure as I did not do any auditioning of pre amplification on its own, my decision making was focused on the amps and speakers so I am not going to venture an opinion yet, not until I have lived with the system and have done my own A/B testing. That said, I can see your point in that most of this can’t be proven and the measurements tell us it’s unnecessary, and I do see his point from my personal experience with high end headphones. I moved from solid state to tubes as I preferred their warmer sound, not sure if that’s what he meant by natural sounding but I can see that description being a fit.

Does that also apply to a separate pre amp? I will know in a month or two and post back here with my thoughts if anyone is interested. What I can say is that this is absolutely unnecessary, as stated in my previous post I auditioned a class D Marantz AMP 10 and it sounded spectacular and for a fraction of what I spent it absolutely makes more sense. This
Isn’t about value on its own but the type of sound and the emotional impact do play a role for some of us.

Almost there, system should be installed by next week and the furniture will be delivered. Will post back in about a month as my ears get used to the system and I can discern minute differences once the initial wow factor is over.

By the way, can anyone recommend room treatments for this room that would look decent and make a difference?

 

[voodooless]

His response was that the comparison between artificial and natural sound can’t be made, and that measurements alone are not an indicator of quality, he absolutely believes both an AV10 and dedicated pre amp make absolute sense and he insists I made the right choice.

I would also say that if I could sell stuff for an additional 50k or so..

 

[Sokel]

By the way, can anyone recommend room treatments for this room that would look decent and make a difference?

You're at the long dimension of the room as I am, so the obvious most effective treatments apart from the front/back wall is floor an d ceiling.
Floor is easy (easy in the way thre's not much to do apart from a nice,thick carpet.

Ceiling on the other hand...
Talk to your installer, it absolutely makes a difference.

 

[Matt_Holland]

I would also say that if I could sell stuff for an additional 50k or so..

@Altair I was just about to post the same. Sorry. Integrators make huge margins on kit, that's a huge incentive to write absolute nonsense like: the comparison between artificial and natural sound can’t be made, and that measurements alone are not an indicator of quality. I would be questioning the value proposition (besides having bling kit with low depreciation) and demand a blind listening test. Sighted listening tests will not be valid.

But, I love the room design and look forward to seeing build take shape.

 

[Times]

...is there a notable difference with separates? ABSOLUTELY! Without a doubt! Things would be even better if I could afford to vamp with two amplifiers...

No there is not. Without a doubt. The ability to reproduce recorded sound with high(est) fidelity has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of boxes you put the required electronics in. It's highly beneficial for the companies who sell them, though.

I will do A-B testing once the system is fully broken in and see if the 15k spent on debatable items makes any noticeable difference at all.

You need to do ABX testing, if you really want an honest answer to that question. And I have some doubts that you really want that.

His response was that the comparison between artificial and natural sound can’t be made, and that measurements alone are not an indicator of quality, he absolutely believes both an AV10 and dedicated pre amp make absolute sense and he insists I made the right choice.

I don't even know what the first part of that statement means. But why should a dedicated pre-amp without state-of-the-art room correction make sense, if the biggest challenge is your room? You even said it yourself... that's the one thing you can't go "all in" and have to find a middle ground between design and sound.

Do you know, what Dirac ART does and is capable of?

 

[TLEDDY]

The architecture space you have is wonderful!!

May I ask your country?

Tillman

 

[Altair]

You're at the long dimension of the room as I am, so the obvious most effective treatments apart from the front/back wall is floor an d ceiling.
Floor is easy (easy in the way thre's not much to do apart from a nice,thick carpet.

Ceiling on the other hand...
Talk to your installer, it absolutely makes a difference.

Thanks for your thoughts. What kind of ceiling treatments should I look at and where would I source them?

 

[Good Vibes]

Wow, that is going to be a stunningly beautiful room. You will absolutely be able to incorporate some stylish absorption/diffuser treatments that will blend into the space.

Keep us updated on progress and especially when the project is completed.

 

[Altair]

No there is not. Without a doubt. The ability to reproduce recorded sound with high(est) fidelity has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of boxes you put the required electronics in. It's highly beneficial for the companies who sell them, though.


You need to do ABX testing, if you really want an honest answer to that question. And I have some doubts that you really want that.



I don't even know what the first part of that statement means. But why should a dedicated pre-amp without state-of-the-art room correction make sense, if the biggest challenge is your room? You even said it yourself... that's the one thing you can't go "all in" and have to find a middle ground between design and sound.

Do you know, what Dirac ART does and is capable of?

Only read the marketing material but have no doubt room correction is absolutely necessary for both HT and HiFi.

When it comes to HiFi, the debate in what comprises desirable sound quality will rage on indefinitely it seems. On one hand we have science based arguments that rely on measurements and facts to determine what’s worthwhile, and on the other hand we have people who state that those measurements or factual indicators don’t necessarily comprise what would be considered pleasurable.

In headphones, I absolutely subscribe to the latter argument, my WooAudio tube amplification sounds far more pleasing and “natural” than my solid state Naim amp, though the Naim is far more advanced and higher rated.

I really can’t make a comment on what makes sense until I do my own testing as far as HiFi is concerned, that will have to wait another 4-6 weeks at least

 

[Altair]

Wow, that is going to be a stunningly beautiful room. You will absolutely be able to incorporate some stylish absorption/diffuser treatments that will blend into the space.

Keep us updated on progress and especially when the project is completed.

Thank you. Interior design is another passion of mine, especially man-centric spaces such as an elegant man cave. This will be a cigar lounge/ billiards room/ reading space / espresso bar/ HiFi/ Home Theater. Excited to see it finalized. Will definitely post pictures once the furniture and decor are in place. I myself am curious if it will look as good as the renderings, might be better or worse… we shall see!

 

[Altair]

The architecture space you have is wonderful!!

May I ask your country?

Tillman

Thank you. Me and the room are in Saudi Arabia.

 

[JayGilb]

Enjoy your system, the room looks beautiful.

 

[jEDGEc0m]

Wild stuff. Enjoy!

Seems to me it would benefit from more subwoofers, particularly considering how much budget is invested everywhere else - 4 subs seems the way to go. More sources/locations of bass would surely be highly beneficial for more spots that sound awesome, and just be good in general, with room correction to tune and optimise.

 

[Altair]

Wild stuff. Enjoy!

Seems to me it would benefit from more subwoofers, particularly considering how much budget is invested everywhere else - 4 subs seems the way to go. More sources/locations of bass would surely be highly beneficial for more spots that sound awesome, and just be good in general, with room correction to tune and optimise.

Thank you for the advice. Would it be better to switch to 2 15 inch subs or 4 10 inches or 4 15 inches?

 

[voodooless]

Thank you for the advice. Would it be better to switch to 2 15 inch subs or 4 10 inches or 4 15 inches?

8x21" is always better...

But seriously, why ask that question for subwoofers, given all the other nonsense that costs thousands and does nothing..