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2-way vs 3-way speakers

iMickey503

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why do telephone and 2-Way Emergency Radio Systems only operate on 300 - 3000 Hertz, for human voice communications?

Finally, My brain can be of SOME use.

Bell Labs and others did some real digging here, but the real simple reason was bandwidth required to understand speech. And balance that with implementation of the POTS telephone system.

It was not all about fidelity with voice, but if it was intelligible and reproducible over a large telephone network and switching infrastructure.

there is actually a lot more that went into this especially when you consider the cabling requirements in how things are routed and how they didn't want conversations to lead over to one another excetera.

simply put the phone system was not optimized for ear sensitivity but for speech intelligibility. (Can you hear me now?)

Texas Instruments basically did the same thing with their speech synthesizer.

The IEEE has a great article on this with some indication as to why:
img.jpg



one of the most very important aspects of this range is the actual Hardware used to reproduce and record the speech. your basic telephone handset has a very limited range of frequencies that can produce faithfully and this is the range where you can basically make a speaker out of the cheapest components and it still functions properly in this frequency range.

same thing with microphones. that famous cheap microphone sound?
interesting how it matches the same bandwidth huh?

further proof of this can be pointed to at data transmission standards over plain old telephone lines or pots.
A (Mostly) full list can be found here:

But the basic idea is from ITU-T
1635956857180.png


It goes into here from the condesned version on the WIKI
1635956926190.png



The ITU Full Doc is here for that bandwidth:


Fun FACT! Those voice standards are made for Male voices! Hence why they updated the standard.


It really has less to do with frequency or allowing the sensitivity measured in PHON. Rather its goal is to provide the bandwidth needed for having voice communication being understandable under the wide parameters of speech going on Via certain transmission medium whether it's a wireless medium or a wired system such as our telephone system of the past based on analog transmission.

I think Page 17 covers voice and ear sensitivity as well as frequency range. Its a Free PDF download.


one thing that people forget about when they wonder why there telephone lines are band limited also has to deal with how early modems worked. For example, x.25 would still work even when your telephone lines were rusty steel wires. and if you look at that range that is audible you will notice that you get the least amount of dropped signal in that range over the most CRUMMIST of telephone lines out there.

so Basically, its more than just ear sensitivity to a certain tone or frequency or bandwidth. it also has to do with how your brain perceives those frequencies as an intelligible speech and how things like Faxon ATM machines and digital devices would operate on that Network in conjunction with the first.


Further evidence that fidelity or sensitivity was not a priority of this band would be in how the military implemented sound powered phones. This book will lead you to the patents and companies involved into selecting that band and why it was used for communications. Much of it being stemmed by the research of RCA.
cover.jpg

Further proof why that speech band is used and why the Military chose it?
Ever heard of Stromberg Carlson? today we remember them for radios but what they originally were were a telecommunications company as in making phones and being a phone company.
1635958890752.png

Much of that prefrence in Bandwidth goes to the switching systems of the day as well.

In summary? The 300 to 3000 cycles area is not chosen due to its sensitivity to the human ear, rather its percetablity, being first, and its utilization being in tandem. It does not reflect the parts that the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies.

(As always, corrections are encoruged! :) )
 

abdo123

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voodooless

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I guess the real answer is that there is no answer. There are good examples of both options out there. Even the IMD graphs are not very conclusive. It's a sample of 1. With other driver selection, the results might be just as well be the opposite. The point is: it all depends on the implementation. You can make anything suck, but making a design really good is hard. And the complexities for a 2 or 3-way system are simply not the same and anything decision you make is in the end a tradeoff one way or another.

I'm contemplating a 2.5-way with two 10" woofers, and a 1" compression driver in a horn. Crossover point hopefully a bit under 1 kHz. The woofers might have motion feedback applied to them to lower distortion and IMD.

Another cool solution is a 2-way synergy horn with an SB65 wideband driver and two 8" woofers. The SB can play from 300~500 Hz on and is very low distortion with quite a good high end as well. It is a bit limited in output though.
 
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Frank Dernie

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r u pushing for 3-way? they r more expensive - +1 woofer, +1 crossover, very few of them had good ratings here. I'd choose good 2-way anytime.
The best are 3 way.
I only consider a 2-way when I want something small
Of my 6 sets of speakers in this house only one is 2-way but with a matching sub.
 

sarumbear

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r u pushing for 3-way? they r more expensive - +1 woofer, +1 crossover, very few of them had good ratings here. I'd choose good 2-way anytime.
Very few are tested thats why.
 

pozz

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Finally, My brain can be of SOME use.

Bell Labs and others did some real digging here, but the real simple reason was bandwidth required to understand speech. And balance that with implementation of the POTS telephone system.

It was not all about fidelity with voice, but if it was intelligible and reproducible over a large telephone network and switching infrastructure.

there is actually a lot more that went into this especially when you consider the cabling requirements in how things are routed and how they didn't want conversations to lead over to one another excetera.

simply put the phone system was not optimized for ear sensitivity but for speech intelligibility. (Can you hear me now?)

Texas Instruments basically did the same thing with their speech synthesizer.

The IEEE has a great article on this with some indication as to why:
img.jpg



one of the most very important aspects of this range is the actual Hardware used to reproduce and record the speech. your basic telephone handset has a very limited range of frequencies that can produce faithfully and this is the range where you can basically make a speaker out of the cheapest components and it still functions properly in this frequency range.

same thing with microphones. that famous cheap microphone sound?
interesting how it matches the same bandwidth huh?

further proof of this can be pointed to at data transmission standards over plain old telephone lines or pots.
A (Mostly) full list can be found here:

But the basic idea is from ITU-T
View attachment 163023

It goes into here from the condesned version on the WIKI
View attachment 163024


The ITU Full Doc is here for that bandwidth:


Fun FACT! Those voice standards are made for Male voices! Hence why they updated the standard.


It really has less to do with frequency or allowing the sensitivity measured in PHON. Rather its goal is to provide the bandwidth needed for having voice communication being understandable under the wide parameters of speech going on Via certain transmission medium whether it's a wireless medium or a wired system such as our telephone system of the past based on analog transmission.

I think Page 17 covers voice and ear sensitivity as well as frequency range. Its a Free PDF download.


one thing that people forget about when they wonder why there telephone lines are band limited also has to deal with how early modems worked. For example, x.25 would still work even when your telephone lines were rusty steel wires. and if you look at that range that is audible you will notice that you get the least amount of dropped signal in that range over the most CRUMMIST of telephone lines out there.

so Basically, its more than just ear sensitivity to a certain tone or frequency or bandwidth. it also has to do with how your brain perceives those frequencies as an intelligible speech and how things like Faxon ATM machines and digital devices would operate on that Network in conjunction with the first.


Further evidence that fidelity or sensitivity was not a priority of this band would be in how the military implemented sound powered phones. This book will lead you to the patents and companies involved into selecting that band and why it was used for communications. Much of it being stemmed by the research of RCA.
cover.jpg

Further proof why that speech band is used and why the Military chose it?
Ever heard of Stromberg Carlson? today we remember them for radios but what they originally were were a telecommunications company as in making phones and being a phone company.
View attachment 163033
Much of that prefrence in Bandwidth goes to the switching systems of the day as well.

In summary? The 300 to 3000 cycles area is not chosen due to its sensitivity to the human ear, rather its percetablity, being first, and its utilization being in tandem. It does not reflect the parts that the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies.

(As always, corrections are encoruged! :) )
Thanks for the links. I think your conclusion is slightly off. That range up to 3kHz is to do with the energy content of speech as established in older studies using the first few formants of syllable spectra. It's an out of date standard.

Fletcher (of Fletcher & Munson) did studies from the 1920s-1950s for Bell Labs to establish the necessary bandwidth for telephony. The conclusion was that you didn't need to capture more than 4kHz. This was carried into modern telephony, where the sample rate to this day tends to be 8kHz. New "wideband telephony" sets out to double the upper end of that range.

4kHz is insufficient when considering that consonant sounds have energy up to 8kHz or so. This was measured back in Fletcher's day, but they considered it unimportant.
 
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Pearljam5000

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r u pushing for 3-way? they r more expensive - +1 woofer, +1 crossover, very few of them had good ratings here. I'd choose good 2-way anytime.
"very few of them had good ratings here"
Do you mean that in general 2-way are better?
 

pozz

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fluid

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It is rather silly to imagine a speaker that has no crossovers within the human vocal range, considering that would encompass all of the harmonics and extend from 85 Hz to 8 kHz.
Not silly just unusual, mine have no crossover and cover 20Hz to 20KHz

L R EQ.png


And if you make a nice cabinet that considers diffraction you can get a pretty good horizontal directivity too (then stack 25 on top of each other to give you enough volume displacement)

Chamfer Mesh.png


Test Box 6mm Chamfer H Polar.png



Of course not everyone agrees that it is a good idea, but as always everything is a trade. I like it and sold my LX521 and Orion speakers as for me it was a better compromise. I don't think there is a single right answer, and I'm always looking for new ideas to try and see if it is better than what I had before.
IWideband drivers ("fullrange" drivers) are one of those... umm... dog whistles in some circles. ;)
Hopefully the above shows that there are alternatives that try and keep some of the benefits of a single driver approach and tackle the downsides.
 

fluid

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you can read more about crossover phase distortion here: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/phs-dist.htm

It is honestly beyond my knowledge to critique a design, but perhaps more experienced members like @DonH56 , @sarumbear or others can elaborate better on the matter since they're academically educated.
You can read a good paper here that has a Genelec association

https://research.aalto.fi/en/publications/audibility-of-loudspeaker-group-delay-characteristics

The conclusion is illustrated in the figure attached below. If you keep the group delay to a low enough level above 300Hz then you can time reverse the impulse and not be able to hear the difference.
 

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fluid

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The best are 3 way.
I only consider a 2-way when I want something small
Of my 6 sets of speakers in this house only one is 2-way but with a matching sub.
The JBL M2, Earl Geddes Summa and Kinoshita's TAD based Studio Main monitors are designs that compete with the best 3 way speakers but they are not small :)
 

RobL

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Is anyone aware of any blind tests between 2 and 3 way speakers eq’d to the same FR? Were test subjects able to differentiate? Was there a clear preference?
I’ve searched but not found much. The SMWTMS had a couple of abx and/or blind tests but from what I can tell results were not at all clear.
 

thewas

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Is anyone aware of any blind tests between 2 and 3 way speakers eq’d to the same FR? Were test subjects able to differentiate? Was there a clear preference?
I’ve searched but not found much. The SMWTMS had a couple of abx and/or blind tests but from what I can tell results were not at all clear.
The most famous one was this https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ootout-between-jbl-m2-and-revel-salon-2.1844/ , although the Revel is actually even 4 way and the test was done in mono. In the end you don't really compare though the number of ways but different drivers, designs and directivities as both have to be different if both should be state of the art, so its rather an apple to orange comparison.
 

abdo123

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Pearljam5000

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If you add a sub to a 2-way speaker can it become as good or better than a 3-way speaker?
 

sigbergaudio

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If you add a sub to a 2-way speaker can it become as good or better than a 3-way speaker?
Of course! :) And technically it does turn into a 3-way speaker/system when you add the sub (or possibly 2.5-way if you don't have highpass on the speakers).
 
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