2 subs or not?

[janbth]

For those with 2 subs, how did you deal with the integration? Did you set up the first one properly then add the second and readjust what was needed?

I use Dirac ART now, but in my previous set-up I integrated my two subs manually. I tried a lot of "algorithms", including "one first, then the other", but in my case I got superior results by integrating the two subs to play well together first (in mono), then integrate the sum to L+R for the mains. I think this approach not only sounded much better, but it has better theoretical foundation. It's one of the room mode manipulation techniques Floyd Toole describes in his book Sound Reproduction.

 

[geek_inside]

I see. So you first set both subs up to sound like one and then and only then you start integrating them to the mains. So rough workflow should be something like:

1. Gain matching subs
2. Delay matching subs
3. Delay matching subs and mains
4. Phase tuning if needed
5. PEQ if needed

Am I correct?

 

[markstein]

This is a good starting point:

Multi-Sub Tuning Basics

Tuning multiple subwoofers with miniDSP processor + REW + MSO.

www.minidsp.com

 

[geek_inside]

I already read this guide, but it's really basic, there's few to no info regarding level and delay matching between subs for example. This one seems a bit more refined:

2.2 Sub integration + MSO

miniDSP is a leading manufacturer of Digital Audio Signal Processors for the HomeTheater, Hifi, headphone and Automotive market. Join our large community of Audiophiles, Engineers and DIYers using our innovative products.

www.minidsp.com

As far as I understand, MSO does what I wrote in my previous post kinda automatically. Curious to know if people prefer to use MSO instead of measuring everything on their own, it might be much faster no?

 

[janbth]

I see. So you first set both subs up to sound like one and then and only then you start integrating them to the mains. So rough workflow should be something like:

1. Gain matching subs
2. Delay matching subs
3. Delay matching subs and mains
4. Phase tuning if needed
5. PEQ if needed

Am I correct?

Yes, I think that is a good workflow. I can add that for pt. 2, the goal of tweaking the delay is to get a flat and smooth frequency response. So focus on the frequency response/frequency domain, and not impulse response/time domain. Start with exact in-phase mono and make small gradual adjustments.

 

[john61ct]

Yeah, loosing loudness will be tough. Thinking of creating a preset on the miniDSP console to emulate it, but of course it won't be dynamic.

Schiit Mimir, or
Eitr 2 + forkbeard

 

[jsilvela]

I see the discussion is so far mainly on the sub settings + measurements.

On the sub placement: I ended up completely disregarding the sub crawl, which I've never figured how to do well.
What ended up working for me: first look at the Welti 2-sub configurations, see if any will work for the room. If not, try to get close in spirit, by which I mean placing the subs symmetrically to try to get mode cancellations.
Use the Room Simulator on REW to iterate over different ideas for placement of your subs. You can specify your room dimensions, desired listening location, drag and drop subs ... it's great.

And then: actually try out two or three placements, measure, and pick one.
This is more me being lazy, but at least personally, I was getting obsessive previously when I was trying to be very exact.

 

[geek_inside]

Yes I already played a lot with the room sim. As my listening space is indeed a living room, I have few placement options but fortunately they all seem to work quite well, at least in theory. Front right corner combined with rear left corner seems OK, as is right side wall combined with rear left corner. My main concern is that the room is opened to a bigger space on one side and I can't simulate that in REW.

 

[markstein]

Yes I already played a lot with the room sim. As my listening space is indeed a living room, I have few placement options but fortunately they all seem to work quite well, at least in theory. Front right corner combined with rear left corner seems OK, as is right side wall combined with rear left corner. My main concern is that the room is opened to a bigger space on one side and I can't simulate that in REW.

Diagonal placement worked very well for me as well.

 

[janbth]

Yes I already played a lot with the room sim. As my listening space is indeed a living room, I have few placement options but fortunately they all seem to work quite well, at least in theory. Front right corner combined with rear left corner seems OK, as is right side wall combined with rear left corner. My main concern is that the room is opened to a bigger space on one side and I can't simulate that in REW.

Check out Amroc pro for simulations of non-rectangular rooms: https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc-pro. It’s a paid-for service, but the five lowest modes are free. If you are lucky, that’s all you need.

 

[klettermann]

I see. So you first set both subs up to sound like one and then and only then you start integrating them to the mains. So rough workflow should be something like:

1. Gain matching subs
2. Delay matching subs
3. Delay matching subs and mains
4. Phase tuning if needed
5. PEQ if needed

Am I correct?

You're on the right track IMO. To clarify steps 2 and 3, you're setting respective delays relative to the sub closest to MLP. Then EQ the mono pair and finally work out the best XO. You'll doubtless go through a few iterations.

FWIW, I've done exactly what you propose, and with excellent results using SHD Studio and 2 DACS. If you just have 2 subs the Studio is ideal. My DSP/DRM progression was from Dirac Live --> REW/MS0 --> just REW. I could never get as good result from Dirac as just using REW carefully. I also spent a lot of time with MSO. I really just a have a single person MLP and 2 subs and found MSO to be unnecessarily complicated., but for >2 subs I'd go back to it.

I set XO to sub at 70Hz. That relieved the mains from the low end and improved dynamics. My subs are in diagonal corners of rectangular room, yet bass is firmly anchored in the front. For reasons I don't understand the virtual mono-sub config greatly improved the overall SQ more than I would have imagined - improved soundstage and imaging as well. Go figure. Good luck and cheers,

 

[levimax]

For what it's worth I bought DIRAC DLBC and was not happy with in for a 2.2 and 2.4 stereo system and went the REW manual route. Now that ART is available for PC I tried it and am impressed. Still doesn't work right for 2.4 but for 2.2 I prefer the ART default sound over any manual filters and integration I could come up with.

 

[klettermann]

For what it's worth I bought DIRAC DLBC and was not happy with in for a 2.2 and 2.4 stereo system and went the REW manual route. Now that ART is available for PC I tried it and am impressed. Still doesn't work right for 2.4 but for 2.2 I prefer the ART default sound over any manual filters and integration I could come up with.

Interesting! I'm getting set up to play around with 2.3 using REW and maybe also MSO. Previously I found I the MSO couldn't improve over REW for 2.2, but maybe it can for 2.3.

 

[Flaesh]

For those with 2 subs, how did you deal with the integration?

Briefly, the link is in signature.