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2,3,4,5-way speakers: how many ways is optimum?

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Cosmik

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You are clearly a Philistine, the Kii Three is a totally revolutionary speaker with a dipolar cardioid figure-8 that could only have been conceived by a genius, has never been thought of or built before, and is the biggest innovation in the field of auditory playback since the invention of the original Edison cylinder.
What the Kii Three does, it seems to me, is put together some basic building blocks in an elegant way. It offends audiophiles because it doesn't trumpet its amazing drivers made of diamond or show off its amplifiers or include a perspex window to show the brand names on its capacitors and internal oxygen-free silver cabling. But it has neat design features, such as motion feedback control of the woofers, all of which share the same chamber. It makes it all look and sound supremely easy, substituting sensible design in the place of heavyweight hardware, sweat and tears.
 

RayDunzl

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kiithree02-87LfmNCzdHTu9Fii9hHNHkm3i_Qmm42L.jpg
 

oivavoi

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Interesting thread. Discovered it now. I'll be getting my new omnis in 3-4 weeks from now, which are two-way but try to get as close as possible to the ideal of being a full range point source with radiation that is 100% even with frequency. Can report back how they perform.
 

A.wayne

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Passive speaker designers traditionally find a three-way speaker troublesome - apparently - and many stick to two-way. For example:

In other words, the passive approach cannot make a good 3, 4, 5 or 6-way speaker regardless of cost.

Lol, this is hilarious .... :)

Where do you get this stuff from , i have yet to hear active anyway beat a passive setup, in reality an hybrid active , passive setup is optimally the best approach when exceeding 3 way , due to inductor size when doing a 4 way, so active , Bass, Sub bass , passive midrange /twt ..


Regards
 

j_j

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Lol, this is hilarious .... :)

Where do you get this stuff from , i have yet to hear active anyway beat a passive setup, in reality an hybrid active , passive setup is optimally the best approach when exceeding 3 way , due to inductor size when doing a 4 way, so active , Bass, Sub bass , passive midrange /twt ..


Regards

Perhaps your listening experience could bear broadening, then. There is no question but that a proper digital crossover with driver EQ does a very, very fine job of creating a neutral loudspeaker.
 

Thomas savage

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Lol, this is hilarious .... :)

Where do you get this stuff from , i have yet to hear active anyway beat a passive setup, in reality an hybrid active , passive setup is optimally the best approach when exceeding 3 way , due to inductor size when doing a 4 way, so active , Bass, Sub bass , passive midrange /twt ..


Regards
Yes it is but equally hilarious is the idea as soon as you put amps in the speaker cabinet the mid and high frequencies are never as good.
 

March Audio

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Lol, this is hilarious .... :)

Where do you get this stuff from , i have yet to hear active anyway beat a passive setup, in reality an hybrid active , passive setup is optimally the best approach when exceeding 3 way , due to inductor size when doing a 4 way, so active , Bass, Sub bass , passive midrange /twt ..


Regards

Indeed, where do you get this stuff from?
 

A.wayne

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Perhaps your listening experience could bear broadening, then. There is no question but that a proper digital crossover with driver EQ does a very, very fine job of creating a neutral loudspeaker.


My listening experience is pretty Broad MrJ-J , been there done that and took home the trophy , subjectively , full active fails the natural test, objectively there are merits to what can be done, but the ears sensitivity to all that electronic glare in the 1-6 K range and beyond becomes obvious.

errr, deaf studio engineers aside ..

:)

Regards
 
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A.wayne

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Yes it is but equally hilarious is the idea as soon as you put amps in the speaker cabinet the mid and high frequencies are never as good.


Well that was not from me , but Microphonic's can cause weird things , i prefer to have the amps on the outside ...


Regards
 

March Audio

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My listening experience is pretty Broad MrJ-J , been there done that and took home the trophy , subjectively , full active fails the natural test, objectively there are merits to what can be done, but the ears sensitivity to all that electronic glare in the 1-6 K range and beyond becomes obvious.

errr, deaf studio engineers aside ..

:)

Regards

I think comments like this, totally unsubstantiated subjectivity, firmly places you in the audiophile camp.
 
OP
Cosmik

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My listening experience is pretty Broad MrJ-J , been there done that and took home the trophy , subjectively , full active fails the natural test, objectively there are merits to what can be done, but the ears sensitivity to all that electronic glare in the 1-6 K range and beyond becomes obvious.
I think this is an example of imagining the visual appearance of something (ugly plate amplifiers, professional PA speakers with plastic trim) and being unable to dissociate it from the idea of all active speakers.

If measurements and theory don't show any reason for "electronic glare in the 1-6 K range", but it really is readily apparent audibly, then that must mean there is something we literally don't understand about the workings of audio systems. In that case, how can we actually design an audio system in the first place? Why should the passive version work, but the active version not, seeing as we don't understand either?
 

A.wayne

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I think this is an example of imagining the visual appearance of something (ugly plate amplifiers, professional PA speakers with plastic trim) and being unable to dissociate it from the idea of all active speakers.

Nope, this is one projecting , i have had some ugly suckers sound good , no issues here with looks vs cause

I
If measurements and theory don't show any reason for "electronic glare in the 1-6 K range", but it really is readily apparent audibly, then that must mean there is something we literally don't understand about the workings of audio systems. In that case, how can we actually design an audio system in the first place? Why should the passive version work, but the active version not, seeing as we don't understand either?


There is still a lot of unknown in the field , the human hearing system is one. Many cant hear this glare and bad timbre with amplfiers, speakers , et al, so not all is equal and hence why there are 1 million itineration of audio setups , myths and acceptance, no matter how we spin the science....

Regards
 

j_j

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There is still a lot of unknown in the field , the human hearing system is one. Many cant hear this glare and bad timbre with amplfiers, speakers , et al, so not all is equal and hence why there are 1 million itineration of audio setups , myths and acceptance, no matter how we spin the science....

Regards

I suspect that there is much more known than you imagine. I would be interested to see if you can hear this "glare and bad timbre" when you don't know how the loudspeaker works in advance.

Now, there are SOME active speakers that do in fact fit your description, but that is a matter of the designers' choices. It is incontrovertable that it is trivially possible to get better impulse, step, and phase response from a speaker that is driven with an electronic, DSP crossover.
 

A.wayne

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I suspect that there is much more known than you imagine. I would be interested to see if you can hear this "glare and bad timbre" when you don't know how the loudspeaker works in advance.

Now, there are SOME active speakers that do in fact fit your description, but that is a matter of the designers' choices. It is incontrovertable that it is trivially possible to get better impulse, step, and phase response from a speaker that is driven with an electronic, DSP crossover.


Yes i can ,

We did sighted and blind listening
We level match
We do comparisons in different locations
We do at least 3 different sessions to verify consistency and drive equipment


Not to worry , not everyone is comfortable outside of their ideological footprint , i wonder how many active advocates could detect phase , impulse or step changes when not aware of changes being made in settings...

I like active for bass/Sub bass only , you guys should get out more often lots of good non active stuff out there not driven by class-D ..


Regards
 
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A.wayne

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Btw my first full active system was in 78 , i built and designed a lot of fully active systems thru the 80's , a lot with custom bespoke Electronic Xovers , so i'm not negative to or against them , i just happen to find passive and quasi active/ passive to be superior in delivery and naturalness...


Regards
 

j_j

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Not to worry , not everyone is comfortable outside of their ideological footprint , i wonder how many active advocates could detect phase , impulse or step changes when not aware of changes being made in settings...

This kind of arrogant professional insult is why I rarely try to engage people on the internet.

Your statement is universal. You said "all". You claim to have reviewed, with DBT, every one. Really? I doubt it. In fact I know at least 3 different sets you can't possibly have reviewed. Nobody (very much including me) doubts there are active speakers that don't sound good. Your statement, however, was universal, rather than limited to what you, yourself, have listened to.

You've also left off the question of pattern control in the various speakers you've tested, which is another gigantic can of worms, but I don't think you're quite ready for that discussion.

So prove your universal. Go for it. And next time you can avoid the unwarranted professional accusation, or be held responsible for that vile defamation.
 
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March Audio

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Nope, this is one projecting , i have had some ugly suckers sound good , no issues here with looks vs cause




There is still a lot of unknown in the field , the human hearing system is one. Many cant hear this glare and bad timbre with amplfiers, speakers , et al, so not all is equal and hence why there are 1 million itineration of audio setups , myths and acceptance, no matter how we spin the science....

Regards

..and again here is a classic audiophile statement. If you have no justification for your audiophile beliefs, blame it on all the unknown science..........

Your inaccurate generalisations betray a belief system and closed mind.
 

A.wayne

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This kind of arrogant professional insult is why I rarely try to engage people on the internet.

Your statement is universal. You said "all". You claim to have reviewed, with DBT, every one. Really? I doubt it. In fact I know at least 3 different sets you can't possibly have reviewed. Nobody (very much including me) doubts there are active speakers that don't sound good. Your statement, however, was universal, rather than limited to what you, yourself, have listened to.

You've also left off the question of pattern control in the various speakers you've tested, which is another gigantic can of worms, but I don't think you're quite ready for that discussion.

So prove your universal. Go for it. And next time you can avoid the unwarranted professional accusation, or be held responsible for that vile defamation.


Irony, Ad Hominem attack and BS response noted ,


Good day
 
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