2.0 or 2.1? Should I add a subwoofer

[vvvyper]

hi All!

I currently have a pair of Mourdaunt Short 908i, which include 10" woofer.

https://www.supersonido.es/productos/documentos/Documento149.pdf

According to you, for listening music, do I get a serious improvement adding a subwoofer like ASW 608? Or will be not so far?

And, in general, why 2.1 instead of 2.0? When is it good to add? When not?

 

[staticV3]

When is it good to add?

When you value playback of deep bass and don't mind the extra effort of integrating a subwoofer.

When not?

When you live in an apartment and would like to keep living there

 

[vvvyper]

Ah uhm So... since I live in a flat... and my bottom neighbour is a bit... easy to claim... is it really easy that they hear my bass and knock on my door?

 

[staticV3]

Ah uhm So... since I live in a flat... and my bottom neighbour is a bit... easy to claim... is it really easy that they hear my bass and knock on my door?

Yes. Deep bass passes through walls almost unhindered.

 

[Hear Here]

The sub you mention also has an 8" driver so will add very little to the response from the 8" drivers in your main speakers. Why bother? Save the money and put it towards a future upgrade of main speakers if you feel the MSs are lacking in bass. Also many say that adding a single sub does very little in improving bass quality, though subs with 12 or 15" drivers will beef up the bass response from main speakers with 8" drivers

I bought a pair of REL S812 subs recently, rather on a whim and as advised by sub users who claimed they would "smooth out" the bass response from my main speakers if placed well way, probably in room corners. The results have been disappointing to the extent I've turned them off and I'll soon be selling them. My main speakers have twin 12" drivers and the RELs each have a 12" driver plus 12" radiator, so they really can't be expected to add much and certainly not enough to justify their price.

In my view the place for subs is AV / HT systems where earthquaking bass is sometimes wanted that can't be delivered by the other small (typically) multiple speakers. In true hi-fi, just get speakers that can deliver the bass you need and keep things simple and avoid "room correction" DSP if possible.

 

[Willem]

The sub you mention also has an 8" driver so will add very little to the response from the 8" drivers in your main speakers. Why bother? Save the money and put it towards a future upgrade of main speakers if you feel the MSs are lacking in bass. Also many say that adding a single sub does very little in improving bass quality, though subs with 12 or 15" drivers will beef up the bass response from main speakers with 8" drivers

I bought a pair of REL S812 subs recently, rather on a whim and as advised by sub users who claimed they would "smooth out" the bass response from my main speakers if placed well way, probably in room corners. The results have been disappointing to the extent I've turned them off and I'll soon be selling them. My main speakers have twin 12" drivers and the RELs each have a 12" driver plus 12" radiator, so they really can't be expected to add much and certainly not enough to justify their price.

In my view the place for subs is AV / HT systems where earthquaking bass is sometimes wanted that can't be delivered by the other small (typically) multiple speakers. In true hi-fi, just get speakers that can deliver the bass you need and keep things simple and avoid "room correction" DSP if possible.

I disagree. Music too can benefit from subwoofers. The advantage of subwoofers rather than massive main speakers is that they can be put in the acoustically best location in the room, provide additional amplification, and can easily be equalized with dsp for best results (this really is important). Multiple subwoofers with advanced equalization such as MSO is the way to go.

 

[Hear Here]

I disagree. Music too can benefit from subwoofers. The advanatge of subwoofers rathe rthan massive main speakers is that they can be put in the acoustically best location in the room, prorvide additional amplification, and can easily be equalized with dsp for best results (this really is important). Multiple subwwoofers with advanced equalization such as MSO is the way to go.

Multiple subs means you are having to pay for loads of costly joinery, lots of amplifiers and electronics, miles of cable, the complication of DSP, loss of floor space, addition of room clutter, etc. All one needs is one pair of well set-up (very important) grown up (with large bass drivers) floor-standing speakers and you'll experience better sound than a system that relies on the precious pure signal being "processed" just because the speakers can't work in harmony without it! Alternatively, add all that sub and cable cost into a pair of great main speakers and spend lots of time setting them up and they'll better just about any multi-speaker system. If you are into AV / HT (as I suspect you may be) then the multiple-box approach is probably be the better compromise - but not I suggest for pure audio.

 

[Willem]

I still think you are wrong both in terms of audio science and in terms of the economics. To begin with the latter, two good basic subwoofers will not cost more than about 1000 euros, and will give more spl and extension than large main speakers can provide. And in my experience you need that for the classic symphonic repertoire (I am not interested in HT). My RME ADI-2 DAC has a screen showing output per frequency, and there is clearly significant signal in the 25 Hz range that few large floor standers can reproduce at full level.
In addition, it is all about the quality of the output. Subwoofer drivers are optimised for low frequencies and subwoofers add their own powerfull amplification to the equation as well (my three smalllish subs have 1200 watts between them).
Finally, and most importantly, there is the issue of room integration. Main speakers have to be located for best results in the mid range, but that is rarely the best spot for a clean bass response. Once located for best bass response, they can be equalized for an even better response. A clean sub 100 Hz or so response without dsp room eq is simply impossible, but to equalize across a wide listening space requires multiple subs. Admittedly that is not easy, but such is life. You cannot run away from the reality of physics and room modes. And contrary to what you suggest, the signal is not degraded by dsp room eq. I would argue on the contrary the signal of unequalized low frequencies is degraded by the room - subs without room equalization are a bad idea.
My own main speakers (Quad 2805, in a large room) go down to 37 Hz without any reduction in measured level, but below that the level drops quite rapidly. I have highpassed them from 80 Hz, and use three subs below that, equalized by MSO, and the added realism is palpable. Without the equalization the peaks and dips were pretty awful, and originally enough to turn me off from subwoofers. Not anymore.

 

[Willem]

To return to the original question, I would advise to first measure the actual in room response, using a Umik-1 and REW. Your speakers may indeed go down pretty deep, and going even deeper may indeed annoy your neighbours. I can predict one thing, however, and that is that the response of the low frequencies will be very uneven. Applying dsp room equalization is bound to not only give significantly cleaner bass response (depending on the room and its size) and reduce the trouble for your neighbour. It is the booming bass peaks that are most troublesome.

 

[Hear Here]

Subwoofer drivers are optimised for low frequencies and subwoofers add their own powerfull amplification to the equation as well (my three smalllish subs have 1200 watts between them).

But surely, so should the bass drivers in a floor-standing speakers. They not only should be optimised for low frequencies, but will also be optimised to sound in harmony with their mid and top brothers. This is rarely the case with subs as most are of a different brand and never designed to be matched with a particular main speaker.

My main speakers have self-powered bass drivers, so perhaps could be described as "subs", but they are of the same brand and share electronics so can avoid the need for signal processing that I prefer not to use.

My own main speakers (Quad 2805, in a large room) go down to 37 Hz without any reduction in measured level, but below that the level drops quite rapidly. I have highpassed them from 80 Hz, and use three subs below that, equalized by MSO, and the added realism is palpable. Without the equalization the peaks and dips were pretty awful, and originally enough to turn me off from subwoofers. Not anymore.

I had a pair of 2905s (with 2912 mods by Quad) for a while after listening to a friend's most impressive 2905 system. It surprised me how loudly they could play and their depth of bass. However els speakers are notoriously poor at deep bass so I sympathise with your use of subs - although I wonder if you would need them with 2912s!

As the Quad purchase was a (successful) try-out for els speakers and were never going to be kept for aesthetic reasons, I then bought new Martin Logan 13As that turned out to be a huge disappointment. They were quickly (and expensively) ditched and I returned to my ancient, but much better sounding Avantgarde Unos. I've stuck with AGs since then as horns seem to be the better TYPE of speaker for my room.

I think the choice of speaker TYPE is the No 1 decision and is largely governed by the room's characteristics - a fact ignored by far too many who blame the room for deficiencies when they perhaps should be blaming their own choice of speaker, specifically its type. With well set-up AG horns in my room, there is no shortage of bass and no need for DSP, although I am sure the response may not be dead flat. For me, that is of less importance than the musical excitement I get from these speakers without the signal being messed with in an attempt to compensate for room, speaker or even amp deficiencies. The measuring mic of course has no idea which of these is causing the trouble. I have abandoned my pair of REL S812s as frankly, they add nothing to the enjoyment factor from my carefully chosen main speakers.

 

[Willem]

Even so, you ignore the problem of room modes. Any measurement shows that they are invariably a big problem, even in a very large listening room such as mine (some 70 sqm). A room mode calculator shows that the Schroeder frequency is around 100 Hz for this room, and room modes do indeed show up below that frequency, and quite badly. So my subs are equalized below the Schroeder frequency. Above that I don't really need equalization, and I am in fact not in favour of equalization above the Schroeder frequency. I lusted after the taller 2812s, but could not position them: the speakers are below a wide panorama window, and the bigger 2812s would have blocked the view. Integration of my first sub was problematic at first, until I realized that the problem was the transition from the higher frequencies reproduced by the Quads and that lacked room modes because dipoles such as these Quads hardly excite any, and the room modes generated by the sub. Once I dealt witrh the room modes by equalizing them, the bass cleared up and integration was suddenly unproblematic. Later on I added first a second and then a third sub, and replaced the Antimode 8033 dsp eq by the more complex but also more powerful MSO/miniDSP 2x4HD combination. I agree such evolved equalization is complex and hard work.

 

[napfkuchen]

They not only should be optimised for low frequencies, but will also be optimised to sound in harmony with their mid and top brothers. This is rarely the case with subs as most are of a different brand and never designed to be matched with a particular main speaker.

That's just wrong. Typical crossover frequency is somewhere between 60 and 100 Hz. If the subwoofer has enough "oomph" support the main speakers at the desired volume there is no need to worry. If you then use more than one subwoofer and also a calibration that takes this circumstance into account (e.g. DLBC), you will achieve a very homogeneous sound reproduction - no matter what brand the subwoofer is.

 

[jcarys]

How about we get back to the OP? Is there something about your music playback that you feel is lacking? Do you listen to a lot of deep bass music like electronica? A sub is only going to increase the sound of the bottom couple of octaves. But if you need more of that bass, or feel your current amplification is straining on the MS models, then you want a sub. If not, I'd just enjoy what you got. Spend your money on music and movies for now.

 

[kyuu]

Adding a subwoofer is pretty much always advantageous, even when the mains are capable well down into the bass region, as long as it can be positioned somewhat optimally and integrated properly (bass management and, hopefully, EQ/room correction). That said, as staticV3 noted it may increase the odds of coming into conflict with neighboring flats. Also, it has to be asked if you feel the bass response of your system is currently lacking with the content you play? If not, it may not be worth going to down that rabbit hole.